Military detention of citizens on u.s. Battlefield

Detention

Senators Demand the Military Lock Up American Citizens in a “Battlefield” They Define as Being Right Outside Your Window
While nearly all Americans head to family and friends to celebrate Thanksgiving, the Senate is gearing up for a vote on Monday or Tuesday that goes to the very heart of who we are as Americans. The Senate will be voting on a bill that will direct American military resources not at an enemy shooting at our military in a war zone, but at American citizens and other civilians far from any battlefield — even people in the United States itself.

Senators need to hear from you, on whether you think your front yard is part of a “battlefield” and if any president can send the military anywhere in the world to imprison civilians without charge or trial.

The Senate is going to vote on whether Congress will give this president—and every future president — the power to order the military to pick up and imprison without charge or trial civilians anywhere in the world. Even Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas) raised his concerns about the NDAA detention provisions during last night’s Republican debate. The power is so broad that even U.S. citizens could be swept up by the military and the military could be used far from any battlefield, even within the United States itself.

The worldwide indefinite detention without charge or trial provision is in S. 1867, the National Defense Authorization Act bill, which will be on the Senate floor on Monday. The bill was drafted in secret by Sens. Carl Levin (D-Mich.) and John McCain (R-Ariz.) and passed in a closed-door committee meeting, without even a single hearing.

I know it sounds incredible. New powers to use the military worldwide, even within the United States? Hasn’t anyone told the Senate that Osama bin Laden is dead, that the president is pulling all of the combat troops out of Iraq and trying to figure out how to get combat troops out of Afghanistan too? And American citizens and people picked up on American or Canadian or British streets being sent to military prisons indefinitely without even being charged with a crime. Really? Does anyone think this is a good idea? And why now?

The answer on why now is nothing more than election season politics. The White House, the Secretary of Defense, and the Attorney General have all said that the indefinite detention provisions in the National Defense Authorization Act are harmful and counterproductive. The White House has even threatened a veto. But Senate politics has propelled this bad legislation to the Senate floor.

But there is a way to stop this dangerous legislation. Sen. Mark Udall (D-Colo.) is offering the Udall Amendment that will delete the harmful provisions and replace them with a requirement for an orderly Congressional review of detention power. The Udall Amendment will make sure that the bill matches up with American values.

In support of this harmful bill, Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) explained that the bill will “basically say in law for the first time that the homeland is part of the battlefield” and people can be imprisoned without charge or trial “American citizen or not.” Another supporter, Sen. Kelly Ayotte (R-N.H.) also declared that the bill is needed because “America is part of the battlefield.”

The solution is the Udall Amendment; a way for the Senate to say no to indefinite detention without charge or trial anywhere in the world where any president decides to use the military. Instead of simply going along with a bill that was drafted in secret and is being jammed through the Senate, the Udall Amendment deletes the provisions and sets up an orderly review of detention power. It tries to take the politics out and put American values back in.

In response to proponents of the indefinite detention legislation who contend that the bill “applies to American citizens and designates the world as the battlefield,” and that the “heart of the issue is whether or not the United States is part of the battlefield,” Sen. Udall disagrees, and says that we can win this fight without worldwide war and worldwide indefinite detention.

The senators pushing the indefinite detention proposal have made their goals very clear that they want an okay for a worldwide military battlefield, that even extends to your hometown. That is an extreme position that will forever change our country.

Now is the time to stop this bad idea. Please urge your senators to vote YES on the Udall Amendment to the National Defense Authorization Act.

The bill was drafted in secret by Sens. Carl Levin (D-Mich.) and John McCain (R-Ariz.) and passed in a closed-door committee meeting, without even a single hearing.

...

In support of this harmful bill, Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) explained that the bill will “basically say in law for the first time that the homeland is part of the battlefield” and people can be imprisoned without charge or trial “American citizen or not.” Another supporter, Sen. Kelly Ayotte (R-N.H.) also declared that the bill is needed because “America is part of the battlefield.”

...

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A bill drafted by the elite, whose physical security is budgeted as casually as office supplies and staff salaries.

Level the security playing field, and our elected representatives will suddenly respect those of us who would suffer as a consequence of legislating this boot on the neck power grab.

Leviathan is a desperate beast lashing out towards those who pose the greatest threat to tyranny:

The Article 2 Army, which should include every American, is once again being threatened by the tyrants in D.C.

McCain's authorship of this bill is no surprise, but the fact that he, like my own elite, collectivist senators, draft such offensive drivel speaks volumes in terms of their fear in preparation for a domestic battlefield.

This legislation is a shot across the bow, and too much akin to that abomination called the Alien and Sedition Acts.

Civil War beckons, and once again, the protected tyrants from the District of Criminals fire the opening salvo.

Don't Tread on Me!

This will pass with little or no fanfare on any news outlet.

This is just another example of elected politicians breaking the contract with the people. So much for freedom of speech or challenging your government if you believe it is wrong.

Go ahead to start fussing, and what? You become a dissident or seditious? What a load of crap. Got to say, I'm not surprised.

Anybody who thinks this has not already been going on in one form or another for the past few decades is sleepwalking through life.

Up to this point, the same basic thing has been accomplished through false criminal charges, this simply changes how the administrative paperwork gets done.

Anybody want to ask Charles Dyer about his opinion on this?

I will be praying that this does not pass, although I agree that this bill would merely formalize, as our dear leader Prince Barry so eloquently read from his teleprompter: "the rule of law."

The enemy is clearly identifying themselves and their intentions.

Good,let's get it out in the open for all to see...Any government that calls it's own citizens,enemies and the "Homeland" a battlefield.Has by action and definition officially declared War(civil war) against the governed.

It would apear that OF THE PEOPLE, BY THE PEOPLE, AND FOR THE PEOPLE has been rewritten to, OF THE ELITE, BY THE ELITE, AND FOR THE ELITE CLASS PEOPLE. The rest of us are just grease for there cogg wheels in there minds, But in reallity they have placed themselves on the list of Endangered Species, Wake up AMERICA we are being torn apart and pieced out to the highest bidders, this is and has been a hostile corporate takeover, WE THE PEOPLE have been sold out for there NEW WORLD ORDER . The U.S. is the BANK and there has been a run on this bank, The till is EMPTY

And now that people are waking up, everyone knows what they have been doing, They are focusing all there efforts twards the Armed Citizens,Those that are precieved a threat to there plans of rule by force. They lulled the people of this great country to sleep and took us down from inside,They use the FEAR FACTOR to keep the masses in line, They are exactly the Domestic enemy Our founders warned us of. The only word that fits is TRAITORS.

The Fed's definition of enemy combatant is whatever The Feds say it i. They can even can define "enemy combatant" as US Citizens in the US who will not surrender their God given constitutional rights.

What this law does is legalize FEMA's Priority Red List Arrest Plan which they have been waiting to use against us for over 17 years now.

from http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread27559/pg1

..."The RED List is for pick-up and execution before unobtrusive preparations for martial law are initiated. The BLUE List is also for execution, but at a later date (within six weeks of martial law declaration.) There are no 're-education' plans for either category, just execution. When you get picked up on a RED pick-up, they'll take you from your home at night (probably around 4 a.m.) and put you in a black van, then drive you to a helicopter waiting to fly you to an intermediate point. There, you'll be loaded onto a big 64-passenger CH-47 Chinook helicopter all black, unmarked and illegally operating under the Treaty on Open Skies. Then they'll fly you to one of 38 cities where you'll board a 747, 737, or 727. You may be taken straight to a temporary detention facility. When you're RED listed, you'll be taken to a red camp. Then you'll be executed. At some point, martial law will be declared. I suspect there will be a major outage, or some other crisis which will be the reason to declare martial law. At this point, the BLUE listed people will be picked up. At that time, the country will be regionalized into ten regions, which are already designated by FEMA. Be advised that it has been proven (in Wyoming and at least one other location) that the black choppers have state-of-the-art radio (RF) frequency wideband jammers, and can jam cell phones and CBs while they're executing black operations missions (i.e., in your area). This means that your cell phone could be jammed just before and/or during any action against you."

This is PRECISLY why everyone needs to eliminate surrender from any options you might be consitering. There is no surrender, The JBT's have been probing to see if the people would fight for 2 decades and so far We have failed every time. Now these traitors are emboldened and proceeding as planned. We all better get serious and prepare to Fight or Die,or both,I choose how to live and GOD willing I will choose how I die, Not Them. SEMPER FI

Yeah, Semper Fi.

Best damn post I've seen around here in a long time.

If such lists exist, and there is no doubt that someone has compiled them, and if in fact it can be demonstrated in court that it is an execution list, then it is in effect, under current law, a murder plot, and conspiracy to commit murder is in fact not just a prosecutable offense, but according to a lot of district attorneys out there (like in the Alaska 241 prosecutions), apparently cause for pre-emptive action.

Now here is where it gets dicey. Lets say FEMA has such a list, DHS has such a list, some inter-agency task force made of mainly of local law enforcement has such a list, and then lastly the military has such a list. Slowly, bit by bit, the people in command of those various organizations begin to figure out that the lists in fact, do NOT MATCH.

Lets say, the various organizations, because they are under control of different political factions at different times have different enemies lists, and different timetables and methods for their enactment, and someone at the command of one finds out he is on the hit list of another, then what is to say who is right and who is wrong when someone decides to pre-emptively start taking out the other leadership?

Think of how messy it is if in fact, the military got some strong hints from the CIA that certain generals, regular officers and even down to several lower enlisted (including a few people who regularly post here) are on the DHS / FEMA death list?

Here is what I do know, the Justice Department regularly has people "picked up" tortured, and "died while in custody" pretty regularly anyway, and anyone who wants to say otherwise is simply lying. What we see here is an entirely different chain of command asserting the same right. That's not a major game changer, but it makes the game that much more interesting.

Now that all law enforcment is connected through DHS (Federalized) the alfa bets can enter a warrent for arrest to any and all agencies, the LEO on the beet will just see an APB on your name and your gone, He won't see a red or blue marker just a warrent wanted for terror threats or Lone Wolf activities or any excuse they think of.

Yes, D308cat is right. A militia friendly Sheriff told a militiaman I know that FEMA has their Red Lists complied and all they have to do to is enter the command code, the arrest warrants will start printing, and we will all show up on an arrest warrant when any police run us through NCIC.

I think the road block check points they have started are practice for the JBTs and to condition us to accept the check points.

I remember Tex Mars and William Cooper speaking on the shortwave many years ago saying that William Pabst tried to sue the Feds for their concentration camp plans for the tyranny resistors and the court threw out the case on the grounds that no one had sustained any loss over them yet. See: http://www.greatdreams.com/concentration_camp_plans.htm

From page 128 Behold A Pale Horse by William Cooper
Author's Note: The following report by Dr. Pabst concerning FEMA and concentration camps in the United States is photographed and printed exactly as written.
IN THE UNITED STATES
A National Emergency: Total Takeover
This is Dr. William R. Pabst. My address is 1434 West Alabama Street, Houston, Texas 77006. My telephone number is: area code 713 521-9896. This is my 1979 updated reported on the concentration camp program of the Department of Defense of the United States.
On April 20, 1976, after a rapid and thorough investigation, I filed suit on behalf of the people of the United States against various personages that had a key part in a conspiratorial program to do away with the United States as we know it. This is a progress report to you, the plaintiffs, you, the People of the United States. The civil action number is 76-H-667. It is entitled, "Complaint Against the Concentration Camp Program of the Dept of Defense". It was filed in the U.S. District Court for the southern district of Texas, Houston division. The judge responsible for the case was
Judge Carl Bue.

From page 141 Behold A Pale Hores by William Cooper
The People vs. the Conspirators
The federal government answered my suit, in June (1976), by filing an unsworn general denial of everything that I had alleged. I spoke with the assistant U.S. Attorney in charge of the case and asked him if he had gone to the trouble to call any of the parties mentioned in the suits - since I had provided not only the addresses, but their telephone numbers to provide a faster means of investigation. He said he had not. He had not even done a minimal amount of investigation of the case, but yet he filed a denial of my allegations. I filed a motion, in the mean time, to take the deposition of the person who writes the training programs for the concentration cam guards, Mr. Richard Burrage - the 75th Maneuver Air Command at Army Reserve Center at Houston, Texas - stating that, in light of all the recent activity of government agents, one of the agencies involved might attempt to murder this key witness, the author of the training camp program. The federal judge denied my motion, stating that I had not quoted enough cases to him justifying my request. However, he was also aware that there were no cases existing on this set of facts but, as you will see as I go along with this report, he chose to ignore it. I then made an agreement with the assistant U.S. Attorney to take the deposition of Mr. Buirrage. After I'd made the arrangements, the U.S. Attorney refused to voluntarily go along with taking the deposition. It is very difficult to find justice in our system of courts. Law is usually practiced by the "buddy system," hence the court rules are overlooked or not followed.
On July 29, a hearing was held at the magistrate of Norman Black, U.S. District Court in Houston. The courtroom was completely filled with spectators. And although the news media had been contacted, no representatives of the press were
there. There is a new media blackout on this matter here in Houston.
Brief oral arguments were presented. The U.S. Attorney explained that I was not the proper person to bring the suit because, although the free exercise of my constitutional rights was threatened by the concentration camp program, as alleged, it did not constitute my injury. The magistrate was impressed with the information I had thus far collected and stated that he would bring it to the attention of the federal judge. The U.S. Attorney tried to have my investigation of the case halted, but the magistrate would not go along that far with a pre-arranged decision.

Question when and if this bill is signed into law.
Will that make all individuals.
Enemies of the state and subject to arrest at the leisure of the state enforcers?
On websites like these and though who speak out, about the distruction and undermining the constitution/bill of rights.

It would but we are guaranteed the right of freedom of speech by the First Amendment and, "All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and void." Marbury vs. Madison 5 US (2 Cranch) 137, 174, 176, (1803)

The Second Amendment guarantees us the ability to enforce the constitution. Amendment II United States Constitution: "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Again, under the currently existing system, going back at least 20 years that I know of. This is common. Someone in some office somewhere decides to put the "hit" on someone, a warrant is issued for a made-up crime, and then the individual gets transferred into the jail system and eventually taken to the facility where they are done in.

We know this was the original attempt on Mark Koernke with the false bank robbery charge, and then the multiple attempts at getting him killed in prison, but due to the fact there were a couple of homicides related to his incarceration carried out by sympathizers on the outside, an outright execution/assassination was not done.

Cops get so glazed over on that "naw man, ain't no warrant out on mee!!" talk from someone that they probably don't even care.

Right now, we are still not clear on what happened to Bob Stewart, AKA Robert Wilson Stewart of Maadi Griffin fame who started the entire movement of home built firearms based on kits and or 80% finished receivers. A federal appeals court judge in California had actually overturned his two original cases that had been initiated by the BATF, Stewart had been set up and railroaded in an elaborate prison bureau / FBI sourced "sting operation" and right now is either dead or being held pretty secretly somewhere, and had no communication that I know of with anyone in the patriot movement.

See my last post in this thread... http://www.awrm.org/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=44&t=000436#000014

They've been doing this kind of crap since the beginning of the so called war on drugs. Hell, they've been doing it since the 30's.

The Dept. Of Jerks loves to make a big deal out of joe militiaman and his "241 plot" to take out cops, judges or whomever.

Well duh. What do they expect. After all, they are the tyrants and the enforcers of tyranny. They are in fact the real terrorists who shoot mothers in the head and burn innocent women and babies cowering in the basement of their church.

So, when the crud hits the rotating oscillator, why would we not plan on eliminating every one of them we can get our hands on??? Why would we not kill all they send??? Why would we not repay hand for hand, eye for eye and life for life???

The ferral monitors should pay attention and fear the death and hell that awaits them if they don't.

Senator Rand Paul, son of a certain congressman, has introduced an Amendment to Senate Bill 1867 to kill this particular provision of the bill .

Tell your senators to support Rand Paul's amendment to strike Section 1031 of the bill.

Onward and upward,
airforce

It would be a good thing to network locally, be valued by yours so you can know trouble is coming. Be a better thing to not actually live at the place you've registered as your residence.

If this Nazi legislation does not constitute them getting all there ducks in a row, I don't know what would. Add this MONSTROSITY to the other recent developments and I think things are about to bust loose, but I have to keep plugging away till then. God Bless and SEMPER FI

The Senate has rejected the amendment to kill this provision, by a vote of 60 to 38.

Here was Senator Rand Paul, speaking on the Senate floor, on the Defense Authorization Act.

And here is the Senate roll call vote.

Onward and upward,
airforce

This Bill put's the proverbial nail in the coffin,for the "Bill of Rights".This should be the line in the sand for us.When people are taken there won't be a "press release",police arrest report or court record(other then a missing persons report by the loved ones) of any kind.They will come like thieves in the night and just take people away,never to be seen again.Let's just call it what it is,the "Round Up Act of 2011".We always talked about how they could just Round people up with out warrants or trials.Well,now we know.God help us all!...

http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2814024/posts

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-...zation-act-is-ridiculously-scary-2011-11

For over 30 years now they have had plans to round up all of us who would resist tyranny. All who were in denial of it will have no doubt of their plans for death camps for us now. We are well armed, well trained, and we out number them. We will prevail.

"And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say goodbye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling in terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst; the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!"
- Aleksandr Isayevich Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

"All of the armies of Asia and Europe cannot by force of arms take a drink from the Ohio river nor lay a track upon the Blue Ridge mountains. If this nation is to fall it shall fall first from treachery from within and then by forces of arms from without. Decide how you wish to live. Pass on your arms to those who will fight if you will not. May your chains rest lightly if you do so. If you are going to hang on to them then know how to use them. Victory over the invader."
- Mark Gregory Koernke

I am personally of a mind that if someone wants to get it on, then its on, regardless of what some piece of paper says. If they want to game on with some Islamo-facists then that's how the game works, and that's their problem with the Islamo-facists whether they happen to have been born and raised in Cairo, Tehran or Pittsburgh.

If someone wants to get it on with me and mine, then I guess that's game on huh? I can tell you it's been done, and I am the one still alive posting here online while the pricks who were thinking they would call the fire down on me are huddling somewhere afraid to go out at night even with their fake names and frequent change of address.

It is nearly impossible in this country to focus resources on large numbers of people the way it was done in the old Soviet Union, in fact even later in the Soviet days it was nearly impossible for them too. Not that it would prevent some stupid people from trying though. Them and their cohorts and collaborators will have to be dealt with in extreme prejudice when they do start that shit on any significant scale. Personally, I welcome the attempt and hope it goes down before I get too old to fight. I have some personal scores to settle with my own little special selection of JBTs, so the sooner they play ball on a massive scale, the better for me. Its being singled out and sold out that hurts my feelings pretty badly, knowing that any JBT can go around my own people telling lies about me to get folks to turn against me and sell me out in trade for their own privelage, that makes me think this country is hardly worth fighting for.

Show me an oppressed constituency that will at least morally support freedom fighters, then that's powerful, but in reality is just not happening anywhere around here that I know of. The closest thing is among the Blacks, and that is primarily racial, however always something to watch since the feds and local LE tend to pull stunts on them before trying it on everyone else, just as a "test the waters" sort of thing. I remember back in the 1990s there was talk of the BATF putting some large Washington DC housing projects under siege and then organizing massive house to house (or apartment to apartment searches for illegal firearms, felons, dope and whatever else would justify the raid.

As it was, supposedly, word of the massive operation got leaked to the press on the morning that the big DC raid was supposed to go down, but similar but smaller scale operations were apparently done in Chicago. After a while though, they began to fall apart and as far as I know, are hardly done any more due to fears (and threats) of armed paramilitary resistance. Meaning that people who did not want paramilitary raids on their apartment complexes were threatening to set up sniper hides and machinegun nests to repel SWAT units, thus turning certain urban areas into instant guerrilla war zones.

Right now, if there is raid say on an Indian reservation, most of the locals know about it in advance, although not the exact time and date of the raid, but usually it involves someone who has been a long time troublemaker anyway. Again, I don't think there has been a successful mass attack/eviction/gun confiscation on any Indian reservations for a pretty long time.

"...If Obama’s threatened veto is overridden and National Defense Authorization Act becomes law, it will allow the state to disappear its domestic political enemies the same way the dictator Pinochet in Chile eliminated his political opposition. Military kidnappings, torture and secret execution are the tactics of thugs in places like Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia and Communist China, not the United States."

source: http://www.infowars.com/ndaa-another-step-in-the-fascist-takeover-of-america/

So basicaly when this is signed into law. All who want and speak about wanting not to be a nanny state supporter.
Run the risk of being took off to the camp or opps he resisted and had an arkansas suicide accident?

Here all those Senators, except Paul who claim to be for the Constitution and the Bill of Rights show their true colors.

Those who claimed to support the tea party movement, but really just hijacked it for political gain have voted to restrict Congresses power and our rights.

They are cowards who refuse to do their job. the only job that is called for in their oath.

Senators your jobs is not to protect the government in Washington. It is to protect the people against the Government in the hands of tyrants.

Your Job was to Protect that little Document that our founders held so dear, not the actual copy but the words written on it.

You have violated, once again, your oath and it will not be forgotten by some of us.

Is that your intention with this law?

Use it to rid the country of those who will stand up and face off with you over these violations.

Some say Civil war will be the only way to stop you. others say just vote them all out. Does anyone of you citizens out there, notice that no matter how far to each side the pendulum swings, the Government just keeps chugging along with it's plans.

Some said Bush was the problem, but Obama has carried on the same path.

Some said Republicans are the problem, then it was democrats... It does not change..

The tea Party stood up and the machine just absorbed them. Yes the Tea Party people out in the country still exist, but the only ones you hear from are in Washington and going along to get along.

The laws are almost in place to stop a civil war before it starts. To lock up any citizen who dares to question Washington.

How long will you citizens out there play your PS3 and talk on your smart phones and know nothing about who's in power and where their taking you.

I seen those shows where some reporter goes out on the street and ask young folks who certain leaders are, It is criminal that so many can't answer the questions.

It is your fault if you lose your freedom. If every Militia man and every other freedom loving group joined together. They still would not be a large enough force to stand forever against the tyrants...

It does not happen with out you the populace, every citizen willing to die for freedom and to give his or her children and grandchildren a future in liberty.

A future that we all squandered and let slip away.

It is not the Job of the small amount of militia men to save you, it is their duty to stand with you and in front of you.

But you must stand....

They may kill me or lock me in some camp, but they will never get me to pledge my allegence to what they are creating. It is your choice if want your children living under a government who one day may be able to lock them away forever for speaking their minds..

Your choice....

Greywolf

You know, it's not healthy to hang on to so much anger, hatred and bitterness. I mean literally, it's debilitating to one's physical health-it's stressful and it fucks with one's quality of life. That's why I hope they pass this shit. Because I could use a LOT of physical therapy, especially hand and finger exercises.

While we should oppose all such unconstitutional legislation; we shouldn't worry too much about what they do. The government has become an irrelevant farce; something evil we should hold in utter contempt. We no longer owe it any obedience, allegiance nor consent.

So, let them continue down their chosen path of self destruction. Let them continue to shred the last vestiges of the constitution and our rights.

Until, the sad day when the final message is posted on websites like this one. Elmer fud can then monitor the deafening silence to his hearts content.

Then, it's game on. And they can't say they weren't given fair warning.

Agreed with all of your post but I really liked that part.

Give me Liberty or give me Death!....Fair warning Enemies of Liberty!

I see no less than two posted comments talking about fair warning.

No! No warning! Like you will be warned when they kick in your door? Fix your mindset and the verbiage that follows. War is not fair and rest assured it will not be fair to you.

Leo out

Rand Paul may have helped us with a modification to the proposed law see: http://paul.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=399

But the tyrants can still implement the FEMA Red List Arrests any time they want to. "...Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman Carl Levin repeatedly pointed out that the 2004 Supreme Court decision in Hamdi v. Rumsfeld said U.S. citizens can be detained indefinitely..." Source http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/story/2011-12-01/senate-congress-defense-bill/51557814/1

Maybe, We should construct a sort of standardized letter detailing the information of this bill,Red /blue list plans and such, and an In case I dissapear explanation that we can print out, sign and seal, give to a couple trusted family members or friends and (Open if something happens to me) on the envelope.At least there might be an uproar when they start snatching people.Of coarse, Those of us that get a chance to fight will be making quite an uproar our selves, Just a thought, SEMPER FI

Well if it has the appearence of being legal under the pretence of color of law.
Most will see that it is ok to up hold said laws even if it undermines due proscess.
On a side note if a soicalist regime wanted to undermine the constitution. First they would have to get those in power to make those type of laws then have them passed.

You know when I was younger before I served this country, every time they would raise that striped rag I would get tears in my eyes. I loved to see her wave...

I felt the same about the stars and bars.. being from the south I was proud of both flags.. my dad taught me that...

As I grew older and wiser and opened my eyes. Only one of those flags brings proud tears anymore it ain't that striped rag. That one has become a symbol of tyranny and oppression.

I would love to have the respect for this country again...

But they drew first blood.

1992,1993 and many more.

They continue to roll back rights that we were talking about way back then. We tried to be patient and hope people would wake up.. We were wrong we should have fought then...

time for wishing for the best is long over.. the people either wake up now or obey that's their choice...

As I said above I will never pledge another oath to that flag as long as they control this land, and I am an Oathkeeper.

violence the answer.. I don't know... but the thing I do know is words have done nothing so far.

It comes down to whether to be a slave or locked up or dead or win and be free.

I made my choice...almost dying for the second time has a way of free up the decision process

Greywolf

Don't blame me. I voted for Jeff Davis. It has been continual since 1865

The beast government has been working for over 100 years to neuter you. Your mind, body, soul.

You've been disarmed and told that those who speak of resistance to death are the enemy.

You've been brainwashed in government controlled schools to think their thoughts and make their actions your will.

Every four f@#&ing years I hear BS from patriots how we MUST vote for the RepubliCON bastard who can win even though he is just as evil as the left wing bastard they put up. It doesn't matter who you vote for. They control both parties and all candidates. ANYONE who could change the system is kept away or killed.

Those same people worship the beast government when it sends troops illegally to all parts of the world to kill people darker than us. They don't get the emergency powers and thought process they use to justify foreign actions also apply to us here! People scream for more instruments of our own destruction.

They can pass whatever laws they want. They do anything they chose anyways.

The only thing that changes stuff is putting boot to ass.

As far as taking POW I changed my mind on this. I thought there would be no way to feed them but think they could easily live miserable lives feeding on each other as lunch.

If it's not the black flag its a waste of time and effort.

Rand Paul,earns his keep!Helping to defeat the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal 2012 (S.1867),amendment No. 1274.By a vote of 41-59 in the Senate.The amendment would allow the U.S. government to detain an American citizen indefinitely and without trial.Does this stop the enemy.Perhaps for now,but clearly not for long.

http://www.randpaul2010.com/2011/12/senator-paul-statement-on-defeat-of-detainee-amendment/

Thank God for Rand Paul but S. 1867 passed the senate and there are still parts of it that say that they can abduct US Citizens in the US in secret, hold them indefinitely, and never charge them with a crime. If S. 1867 becomes law it will legalize their old Red List plan.

If patriots start disappearing it is game on and surrender will not be an option.

See: http://www.infowars.com/indefinite-detention-bill-passes-senate-93-7

http://www.infowars.com/terrorist-congress-declares-war-on-american-people

Again, have a place to go that doesn't have your name on it. Or better yet several-rooms, apartments, abandoned farms, caves.

Rand Paul's actions were a I minor victory.But,it will in the end help give Militia the credibility needed to hold the line against any open attacks against us or the civilian population.

Walfred
Yes it will, but only if the Militias can get everyone to know when TSHGTF.
Move too soon and get handed their hearts in a box. Move too late and they have no chance to assemble.
What is needed is to go to J.Croft's site and look up his documents on the Committees of Safety, and Committees of Correspondence.
A militia without a local government calling the shots, and leaving them to conduct the hostilities, is just a loose gang. Since we can't depend upon those we elected to do what is needed, and right, there needs to be a government of the people created that will.

Do you this site? http://awrm.webs.com

I concur,Safetalker.Civilian rule is the only way the Militia can succeed.But,I would go a step further.Hold local caucus'...Choose local delegates to go to the state capital and be the acting State Legislature.They in turn choose a small delegation to meet with other state delegates to convene a "NEW" national assembly.

If patriots start disappearing it will be because the the Red List Arrests have started and they will be executing the patriots in the FEMA camps. They will be coming to put you in a FEMA Concentration Camp too. Then it will not be time to play politics or government and it will not be time to get an apartment. It will be time to head to a remote location with your militia group and prepare a counter attack.

I would remind everyone of this...

http://www.awrm.org/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=32;t=000577

In particular...

7. We will NOT tolerate any order to detain American citizens as “unlawful enemy combatants” or to subject them to trial by military tribunal. The international laws of war do not trump our Bill of Rights. We reject as illegitimate any such claimed power, as did the Supreme Court in Ex Parte Milligan (1865). Any attempt to apply the laws of war to American civilians, under any pretext, such as against domestic “militia” groups the government brands “domestic terrorists,” is an act of war and an act of treason. An unwarranted, armed attack against any member of the militia or it’s leadership, will be considered an attack against all the State Militia’s and will necessitate a response.

10. We will NOT tolerate any order to force American citizens into any form of detention camps under any pretext. Any order to forcibly intern Americans without charges or trial is an act of war against the American people, and thus an act of treason, regardless of the pretext used.

Source

Blind Obedience to the State: The Sheep Are Now Ready for Slaughter!
By Gary D. Barnett

A really efficient totalitarian state would be one in which the all-powerful executive of political bosses and their army of managers control a population of slaves who do not have to be coerced, because they love their servitude. To make them love it is the task assigned, in present-day totalitarian states, to ministries of propaganda, newspaper editors and schoolteachers.... The greatest triumphs of propaganda have been accomplished, not by doing something, but by refraining from doing. Great is truth, but still greater, from a practical point of view, is silence about truth.
~ Aldous Huxley

Men are born with free will, so why do they behave as slaves? Most in this country believe that the politicians are civil or "public" servants, while the common man is king. Most believe because they cast a ballot to choose their "leaders" that they are free, but the politicians among us are really the masters of a population of slaves. To paraphrase Charles de Gaulle, the politician simply poses as a servant, in order to become the master.

In America today, the many are ruled by the few. The many allow this tyranny voluntarily, and with open arms. The only men who can be reduced to servitude are those who choose to do so. For men who cling to liberty with passion can never be ruled, and will never allow their freedom to be taken from them. These are men of truth and character, and sadly, they are the extreme minority. These men of integrity are now directly in the crosshairs of this oligarchy called America, and without them, the rest of society is doomed to a life of serfdom.

To obey the restrictive rules crafted by the politicians, and without resistance, is to guarantee the destruction of liberty. It is not only a fatal form of apathy, but it is also the basis for the destruction of our soul. Politicians after all, are the lowest form of man, and do not deserve respect when their aim is to rule over and control the rest of us. For what are we if we simply do as others in power demand, without the courage to stand up for what is right? What are we if we bow our heads in fear when our fellow man is being trampled? What are we when we allow all that we have earned to be taken from us by force, and say or do nothing to stop it? What have we become when the worth of a man is judged by his allegiance to the state?

It is time for these questions to be answered honestly, because those who are willing to fight against tyranny are now being targeted for extinction. The nefarious Senate of this land just passed Senate Bill 1867, the National Defense Authorization Act of 2012. If accurately titled, it would be called instead the Sedition Act of 2012. Most of those opposed to this horrible legislation are concentrating on just two sections, those being Sections 1031 and 1032. While Section 1031 allows for any American to be captured, held indefinitely without charge or trial, tortured or worse, the rest is not much better, and the entire bill should be scrapped immediately!

It is instructive to understand that the U.S. government and its military have been for the past ten years capturing and incarcerating foreigners and Americans, and without benefit of due process. The president now "claims" the power to assassinate any on earth he chooses to, including American citizens, and without charge or trial. But this new legislation will in my opinion not only massively expand these so-called powers, but also bring them under the guise of legality. This is more dangerous than most realize, because it will help keep the sheep at bay when mass roundup of American citizens becomes the norm. This is due to the nonsensical popular belief that just because the ruling class makes a law, it must be followed, even if it is bad law.

And now fusion center documents have labeled any who investigate the Oklahoma City bombing as terrorists. Pair this with the passage of S. 1867, and the terrifying picture becomes clear. The government now holds the position that any who question what goes on in this country, or even any who question the government story line, are practicing terrorism. This cannot be doubted, especially considering the fusion center story, and the passage by the senate of S. 1867.

What this means in real terms is that all dissenters, all truth tellers, all protesters, and all who question "authority," can in the eyes of government be captured and imprisoned indefinitely, and without benefit of trial. All of us who question what this government does and what its motives are, can now be hauled away to concentration camps, and even tortured or murdered, all under the umbrella of the "law!"

As for me, I question every single thing this government says and does, and I investigate most every government action. Because of this despicable legislation, what will become of the truth tellers? What will become of honest libertarians? What will become of those of us who are unafraid to expose lies and corruption? What will become of all of us?

The scope of this legislation is far reaching, and without limit. The literal barbarity of this is obvious to any right thinking person, and the probable consequences of speaking one’s mind in the future could be deadly.

The most dangerous sound now could be the sound of silence, for if we do not speak out and rebel against this travesty, we will be doomed to a life of servitude. When we finally refuse to serve no more, then we will at once be free. No man should serve another by force, and no man deserves to be free if he does.

It is incredible how as soon as a people become subject, it promptly falls into such complete forgetfulness of its freedom that it can hardly be roused to the point of regaining it, obeying so easily and willingly, that one is led to say that this people has not so much lost its liberty as won its enslavement.
~ Etienne de la Boetie

Damn good reminder

Quote JFK
“Those who make Peaceful Revolution impossible, will make Violent Revolution inevitable.“

What this bill if enacted will effectively do is to make Peaceful Revolution impossible, so these Traitorous Congress Scum will make the coming Revolution a Violent one.

After we win the War we must make sure that the Scum that are responsible for all the death and misery from the lowest trigger puller all the way to the top must held fully accountable and they must be punished for their crimes against the People. And this punishment must be severe. Also they must pay the price for their actions regardless of where they have escaped to. There must not be any sanctuary for any of them, anywhere in the world. Any Nation which gives them sanctuary will be given a choice, to surrender them or to feel the wrath of the New United States.

We need to watch closely for the first to go...If they follow S.O.P,they'll grab one or two initially.Then wait for a reaction before proceeding with any kind of mass round ups.When does this Bill(if pass)take affect?1st of the year or immediately?

Here's more proof the Republican Party really doesn't like Tea Partiers. When you call Sen. Rand Paul a "libertarian extremist," we pretty much know where you're coming from.

And my favorite line in the whole article:

You ever want to just reach into a computer and just strangle someone? Trust me, some us "libertarian extremists" aren't quite as pacifist as Andrew McCarthy seems to think.

Onward and upward,
airforce

They know S 1867 will be signed into law and they are getting the FEMA Concentration Camps ready for prisoners now. See: http://www.infowars.com/exclusive-government-activating-fema-camps-across-u-s

I'm seeing more than just this, but also the national police force again and military selling weapons to local leos for just shipping cost.

You just cant make this crap up. It sounds fantastic, and when I say that, I mean it sounds friggen crazy. It wont be long now, we will have our hands full. So, will they.

Leo out

Obama Administration Demanded Power To Indefinitely Detain U.S. Citizens



White House removed language that would have protected Americans from Section 1031 of NDAA

Paul Joseph Watson
Prison Planet.com
Monday, December 12, 2011

Despite reports that Obama is planning to veto the National Defense Authorization Act, Senator Carl Levin has revealed it was the administration itself that lobbied to remove language from the bill that would have protected American citizens from being detained indefinitely without trial.

“The language which precluded the application of Section 1031 to American citizens was in the bill that we originally approved…and the administration asked us to remove the language which says that U.S. citizens and lawful residents would not be subject to this section,” said Levin, Chairman of the Armed Services Committee.

“It was the administration that asked us to remove the very language which we had in the bill which passed the committee…we removed it at the request of the administration,” said Levine, emphasizing, “It was the administration which asked us to remove the very language the absence of which is now objected to.”

Section 1031 of the NDAA bill, which itself defines the entirety of the United States as a “battlefield,” allows American citizens to be snatched from the streets, carted off to a foreign detention camp and held indefinitely without trial. The bill states that “any person who has committed a belligerent act” faces indefinite detention, but no trial or evidence has to be presented, the White House merely needs to make the accusation.

An amendment introduced by Democratic Senator Feinstein, described as “cleverly worded nonsense” by Congressman Justin Amash, does not protect Americans from being subject to the provision.

“The Feinstein Amendment 1031(e) is dangerously misleading,” writes John Wood of Change.org, which is running a petition to oppose the signing of the bill. “Don’t be fooled: In the text of 1031(e), “Nothing in this section shall be construed…”, the only word that matters is “construed” because the Supreme Court are the only ones with the power to construe the law. The Feinstein Amendment 1031(e) permits citizens to be imprisoned without evidence or a trial forever, if the Supreme Court does not EXPLICITLY repeal 1031.”

The Obama administration never had a problem with Section 1031 of the bill and indeed acted to ensure it applied to American citizens. Doubts over whether or not Obama would veto the bill only arose out of issues with Section 1032, which pertains to the military being required to take custody of individuals.

“Confusingly, Obama threatened a veto for 1032, but NOT 1031. 1032 is UNRELATED to imprisoning citizens without a trial. Obama has never suggested using a veto to stop Section 1031 citizen imprisonment,” writes Wood.

The notion that the administration lobbied for language that would have protected American citizens and legal residents from indefinite detention to be removed from the bill is unsurprising given Obama’s policy with regard to predator drone strikes.

The White House has asserted the right to carry out state-sponsored assassination anywhere in the world without having to provide any evidence or go through any legal process. The administration merely has to state that the target is a terrorist and it doesn’t matter whether they are an American citizen or not, as we saw in the case of American-born Anwar al-Awlaki and his son who were both killed earlier this year.

Indeed, at the start of the month, Obama administration lawyers reaffirmed their backing for state sponsored assassination.

Congress has until tomorrow to block the law before it heads to President Obama’s desk. Putting faith in an administration that has formalized state-sponsored assassination of U.S. citizens without trial to block the ‘indefinite detention’ provision of the NDAA bill is naive to say the least.

Sign the petition, contact your representative and contact the White House making your opposition to the bill known by clicking here.

I have been reading many threads about this new Bill, not sure of the Final content, but be sure this should be a Warning Flag to all Patriots..They are out of the shadows and in the naked light of day..they are Traitors, they will pay a heavy price for this Treason..I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees..We will prevail..the 3% as always..Prep Pray Train!

Indefinite detention is a legitimate part of the laws of land warfare when it comes to actual enemy combatants.

The question then arises over how and who and when military officials will determine that someone is an enemy combatant. Now in the case of the Al-Queda recruits, if the criteria are honestly applied, then the indefinite detention is legit.

If however, the detention is based on lies, innuendo and some off hand drunken remarks made in a chatroom somewhere, that is another matter entirely. I know for a fact that the US Attorney's office in Oregon has in the past allowed agents to lie in order to use additional resources to go after targeted individuals, but the lies about said individuals being "connected to Al Queda" were reviewed by military authorities, found to be false, and the terrorism case dropped before it got very far specifically because the individuals involved were in the military, had not professed any conversion to Islam and had volunteered for deployment to the sandbox.

In the meantime, the US Attorney decided to take a different prosecutive approach. I also got an unconfirmed report of a government attack on the law office of an attorney in Eugene Oregon that was ransacked by the feds. The door was breached with an explosive entry while the office was not occupied, files taken and then the lawyer notified of several restrictions on the manner of communication he could have with his client. That being in the 2004-2005 time period. Again, military not involved. That was all under existing law.

We also know how the case of Mark Koernke was prosecuted. A cop was given a false BOLO on him, then went after Koernke on a false bank robbery allegation, then Koernke was convicted and imprisoned for getting away in a high speed car chase, which was prompted on false allegations. Once in prison, situations were manipulated in such a way the Koernke got extra prison time and there were several attempts on his life made in ways that were supposed to appear either accidental or inmate vs inmate violence. Again, all under existing circumstances and law, and I think mostly even before the Patriot Act got put into play.

Right now in the sandbox, military intelligence people are dealing with the fact that Iraqi criminal informants are pulling the same stunts that criminal informants do in the US, selling false information for real money, often just turning in some sucker for reward money and what ends up in government custody a lot of the times are unpopular cab drivers and goat herders who just got sold down the river by double agents working for whoever pays at any given time. One week they are scouting US military convoy routes for placement of IEDs, the next week they are attempting to gain the trust of those same commanders they set up ambushes against by turning in the names of some local inhabitants that someone else is also willing to speak against.

The new bill not only changes very little in the real world, but it gives what some of the loudmouths in the Militia movement have asked for: POW status.

The US government also has a history of allowing for or calling for the assassination of various outlaws and terrorists. In the old west, this was done with "wanted dead or alive" posters. US Marshalls put up the reward for various rogue Indians and outlaws and while perhaps the actual operations to kill or capture the individuals were technically secret, the causes were fully public and known.

The question then becomes one of whether or not someone is openly or secretly declared a legitimate target of the state. What we know is that at the criminal level, there is such a thing as a "death warrant" given in various extreme cases, special language used in a "Be On the Lookout". It is quite likely that such language was used in the warrants when Charles Dyer was on the run and that explains to some degree the treatment of Debbie Swan.

What we are also being told (so far) is that everything against Swan and Dyer is coming from the Justice Department, not the military. Dyer did go through a military sedition trial and was found not guilty, with that determination unlikely to change any time soon, his entire case was shunted over to the Justice Department which is proving at this point to be willing to play dirty pool just to prosecute a targeted individual "legally". I personally don't think it qualifies as a presidential death warrant.

40 Members of Congress Protest ‘Indefinite Detention’ Bill


Legislation set for final vote Thursday

Paul Joseph Watson
Prison Planet.com
Wednesday, December 14, 2011

40 members of Congress have sent an urgent letter to House and Senate Armed Services Committee leaders protesting provisions of the National Defense Authorization Act that would legalize indefinite detention of American citizens without trial, as the revised version of the bill heads for a final vote on Thursday.

“The Senate-passed version of the NDAA, S. 1867, contains Section 1031, which authorizes indefinite military detention of suspected terrorists without protecting U.S. citizens’ right to trial. We are deeply concerned that this provision could undermine the Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Seventh, and Eighth amendment rights of U.S. citizens who might be subjects of detention or prosecution by the military,” states the letter.

Opposition to the bill has been bipartisan. While the letter is signed mostly by Democratic members of Congress, Republican representatives like Justin Amash, Ron Paul, and Rand Paul have also been vocal in their opposition.

After a weekend of secret meetings, the final version of the bill emerged on Tuesday morning and is set to voted on before the end of the week. Issues the Obama administration had with the bill, which had nothing to do with indefinite detention (indeed it was the White House itself which removed language that would have protected Americans from Section 1031), now appear to have been settled.

Both the ACLU and Human Rights Watch point out that the final version does nothing to protect American citizens against indefinite detention.

“The sponsors of the bill monkeyed around with a few minor details, but all of the core dangers remain – the bill authorizes the president to order the military to indefinitely imprison without charge or trial American citizens and others found far from any battlefield, even in the United States itself,” said the ACLU’s Chris Anders.

“The latest version of the defense authorization bill does nothing to address the bill’s core problems – legislated indefinite detention without charge and the militarization of law enforcement,” concurred HRW’s Andrea Prasow.

Proponent of the legislation Senator Lindsay Graham ironically summed up the nightmare scenario the bill will codify into law – the complete evisceration of all Constitutional protections for U.S. citizens.

“It is not unfair to make an American citizen account for the fact that they decided to help Al Qaeda to kill us all and hold them as long as it takes to find intelligence about what may be coming next,” remarked Graham. “And when they say, ‘I want my lawyer,’ you tell them, ‘Shut up. You don’t get a lawyer.’”

Of course, the government would not be required to present any evidence whatsoever or go through any legal process to snatch an American citizen off the street and send them to Guantanamo Bay, merely accusing them of aiding terrorists or ‘committing an act of belligerence’ would be enough.

Protests and funeral marches to mark the death of freedom in America and the legalization of permanent martial law, are being planned for Thursday, which ironically is Bill of Rights Day, 220 years since the liberties now about to be eviscerated were first ratified on December 15, 1791.

If this insane tyrannical laws passes it could start Civil War II. If accused citizens are secretly abducted and don't get a fair trail then they might start shooting it out with whoever tries to arrest them. Next since offense is much more effective than defense others might start acting preemptively figuring that their abduction will be next. This damn law needs to be stopped now.

I personally don't think there is any single act of congress that would start Civil War II. No single act of the president and not even a single bad incident carried out under government authority.

As long as the 51% majority figures they are doing alright and don't feel the sting of being targeted by .gov, they will figure that any revolutionary acts are the venue of malcontents and nutjobs.

How many of our people have been in that predicament of being arrested and told they don't get a lawyer until after they have been charged with something, and then lots of threats and blackmail are used to wheedle some advantage out of the individual? These naysayers really have their heads in the sand over the way the feds have been operating for a long time. Heck, even your county level law enforcement task forces pretty routinely use threats, isolation and torture to get what they want.

You can look in any jail in the US and find practices that are engineered to "break down an individual" quite often on the orders of a prosecutor while the individual either has no legal access, limited legal access or a really shitty public defender who may be "equal" to the prosecutor in court but in reality commands on tenth of the resources. The result: innocent people plea bargain...

And gain, in ANY jail in the US you will find torture devices that are just modernized variants of many things used in the middle ages. The beds and chairs that someone can get chained into, concrete slabs with attachment points at the corners for chaining someone to "spread eagle" for hours. Does someone want to tell me that is not torture? The Scientology people had an exhibit of that stuff here in Downtown Portland a couple summers ago before they practically got run out of town by the "anonymous" crowd.

I think that at least some of the news-rumors really-that gets circulated in the movement is meant to keep us in a state of anxiety, even fear. Not saying the rumors are false but You can't think too well in that state.

Meanwhile the enemy keeps employing their long con against the American People in general because we're isolated, ostracized and a lot of us choose to remain in that little box. Which is convenient for the enemy because they can pick us off one by one and the group may not even know, and if they do know, do nothing.

Those that have cast themselves as figureheads like Mark Koernke, Charles Dyer? Look what they've done, are doing, and our... 'response' as a group. Personally I'm ashamed.

The enemy will desire to keep this sweet(for them)set up going as long as possible. The economy will gently collapse until they figure they can win a civil war-probably through use of a network of all the country's surveillance cameras and cheap, easily produced, expendable drones. Already a Predator drone was used on some BS case in North Dakota so I could picture them going after ConSigCor, Texas Resistance, Breacher: lob a bomb or hellfire, blow them to hell and say it was a natural gas explosion or something. And the truth will get swept under the rug and the enemy's bs will be taken at face value... unless their hired murderers opt to take on more dangerous game than pacifist libertarians and pussy 400lb diabetic gun owners on oxygen.

Indefinite Detention Hurts Our National Security and Increases the Risk of Terrorism

Washington’s Blog
December 15, 2011

Top counter-terrorism officials have said that indefinite detention increases terrorism.

A former Admiral and Judge Advocate General says that indefinite detention of Americans hands a big win to the terrorists.

And as Huffington Post notes today, indefinite detention is opposed by our own military and intelligence and police:

FBI Director Robert Mueller just this morning told the Senate that he fears the proposed law will create confusion over who has authority to investigate terrorism cases.

Defense Secretary Leon Panetta said the National Defense Authorization Act will restrain the Executive Branch’s ability to use “all the counterterrorism tools that are now legally available” and “needlessly complicate efforts by frontline law enforcement professionals to collect critical intelligence concerning operations and activities within the United States.”

Director of National Intelligence James Clapper has written that it “would introduce unnecessary rigidity at a time when our intelligence, military and law enforcement professionals are working more closely than ever to defend our nation effectively and quickly from terrorist attacks.”

Still, ignoring the advice from his most senior federal military and law enforcement professionals, President Obama is expected to sign the 2012 law, according to his senior advisors.

The concerns aren’t limited to federal officials. Earlier this week the 20,000-member International Association of Chiefs of Police wrote to Congress expressing concern that the law could “undermine the ability of our law enforcement counterterrorism experts, in particular those involved with Joint Terrorism Task Forces, to conduct effective investigations of suspected terrorists.”

A bipartisan group of 26 retired generals and admirals recently wrote that the legislation “both reduces the options available to our Commander-in-Chief to incapacitate terrorists and violates the rule of law” and “would seriously undermine the safety of the American people.”

The U.K. and Germany have said they won’t share intelligence or turn over suspected terrorists to the U.S. if they know they’ll be headed to indefinite military custody.

So not only will the bill allowing indefinite detention of Americans create an overt police state, but it will also make us more vulnerable to terrorism.

Your Right of Defense Against Unlawful Arrest

“Citizens may resist unlawful arrest to the point of taking an arresting officer's life if necessary.” Plummer v. State, 136 Ind. 306. This premise was upheld by the Supreme Court of the United States in the case: John Bad Elk v. U.S., 177 U.S. 529. The Court stated: “Where the officer is killed in the course of the disorder which naturally accompanies an attempted arrest that is resisted, the law looks with very different eyes upon the transaction, when the officer had the right to make the arrest, from what it does if the officer had no right. What may be murder in the first case might be nothing more than manslaughter in the other, or the facts might show that no offense had been committed.”

“An arrest made with a defective warrant, or one issued without affidavit, or one that fails to allege a crime is within jurisdiction, and one who is being arrested, may resist arrest and break away. lf the arresting officer is killed by one who is so resisting, the killing will be no more than an involuntary manslaughter.” Housh v. People, 75 111. 491; reaffirmed and quoted in State v. Leach, 7 Conn. 452; State v. Gleason, 32 Kan. 245; Ballard v. State, 43 Ohio 349; State v Rousseau, 241 P. 2d 447; State v. Spaulding, 34 Minn. 3621.

“When a person, being without fault, is in a place where he has a right to be, is violently assaulted, he may, without retreating, repel by force, and if, in the reasonable exercise of his right of self defense, his assailant is killed, he is justified.” Runyan v. State, 57 Ind. 80; Miller v. State, 74 Ind. 1.

“These principles apply as well to an officer attempting to make an arrest, who abuses his authority and transcends the bounds thereof by the use of unnecessary force and violence, as they do to a private individual who unlawfully uses such force and violence.” Jones v. State, 26 Tex. App. I; Beaverts v. State, 4 Tex. App. 1 75; Skidmore v. State, 43 Tex. 93, 903.

“An illegal arrest is an assault and battery. The person so attempted to be restrained of his liberty has the same right to use force in defending himself as he would in repelling any other assault and battery.” (State v. Robinson, 145 ME. 77, 72 ATL. 260).

“Each person has the right to resist an unlawful arrest. In such a case, the person attempting the arrest stands in the position of a wrongdoer and may be resisted by the use of force, as in self- defense.” (State v. Mobley, 240 N.C. 476, 83 S.E. 2d 100).

“One may come to the aid of another being unlawfully arrested, just as he may where one is being assaulted, molested, raped or kidnapped. Thus it is not an offense to liberate one from the unlawful custody of an officer, even though he may have submitted to such custody, without resistance.” (Adams v. State, 121 Ga. 16, 48 S.E. 910).

“Story affirmed the right of self-defense by persons held illegally. In his own writings, he had admitted that ‘a situation could arise in which the checks-and-balances principle ceased to work and the various branches of government concurred in a gross usurpation.’ There would be no usual remedy by changing the law or passing an amendment to the Constitution, should the oppressed party be a minority. Story concluded, ‘If there be any remedy at all ... it is a remedy never provided for by human institutions.’ That was the ‘ultimate right of all human beings in extreme cases to resist oppression, and to apply force against ruinous injustice.’” (From Mutiny on the Amistad by Howard Jones, Oxford University Press, 1987, an account of the reading of the decision in the case by Justice Joseph Story of the Supreme Court.

As for grounds for arrest: “The carrying of arms in a quiet, peaceable, and orderly manner, concealed on or about the person, is not a breach of the peace. Nor does such an act of itself, lead to a breach of the peace.” (Wharton’s Criminal and Civil Procedure, 12th Ed., Vol.2: Judy v. Lashley, 5 W. Va. 628, 41 S.E. 197)

That's all state law, and other states deal with the situation differently. I think it is right to argue the morality of resistance from a legal standpoint, just to get the religious naysayers off your back over resisting hostile action on the part of the government, but in the larger picture, this is also a matter about possession of the nation.

The right to possession on a nation, any nation, lies in its constitutional makeup. That is what defines whether someone is having a revolution or a counter revolution, or a restorative revolution to an earlier form of government (like re-establishing a monarchy).

I am not sure if acts of resistance would be considered warfare or vigilantism on this, or just plain Chuck Norris style "you fucked with freedom so now I will fuck you up" type stuff.

What I have discussed lately with another patriot on this board is that "indefinite preventive detention" has been practiced at the state level and to a lesser degree at the federal level as a matter of "mental health policy" for a very long time, just the process sidestepped the military and tended to use local resources. It also had a history or faliure when used against organizations since the whole nature of it is geared toward "dangerous individuals". From what I understand, pre-existing mental health preventive detention laws traditionally don't functionally work as well against organizations but historically, it has been used against cults.

One historic note, the case of Charles Manson, if I remember correctly, his originator crimes of conviction called for something shorter than the life sentence that he got, and at every parole hearing, his is rejected usually on the grounds that his further detention prevents further crimes. Some legal rights "purists" would argue for the release of Charles Manson, but most people don't go that far and are happy to see him still locked up and batshit crazy from a combination of his own pre-existing insanity and numerous psych meds that he is fed, by force if he is uncooperative.

The same levels of common sense need to come into play if some of those alleged AL Queda camps turn out to be both real hostile on top of being armed, dangerous, and combining citizen fighters with non-citizen fighters. Current law apparently deals with that to some degree but personally, I am not seeing anything I would write commendations over, sort of like that Muslim guy who joined the Michigan militia, got elected to a position of rank with them, had contact wit the Hutaree militia, and then promptly sicked the feds against the Hutaree...

Yeah, real freedom fighters with that whole scene. Reminds me of the class III crowd and FFL holders here in Oregon who are constantly scouting for names to turn in to their good friends at the BATfag offices.

Our friend Breacher may be right and they might never use The National Defense Authorization Act S. 1867 against many Patriots but they could. The National Defense Authorization Act S. 1867 is pure tyranny and it could start a civil war. Sure they will only use it against Muslim Terrorists in the beginning to get people used to it but then they are likely to start using it against Patriots and anyone else the Obomination in DC doesn’t like.

If Patriots are secretly abducted, never charged, never get a trial, and get locked up for the rest of their life in Guantanammo Bay Cuba like they are Al-Qaeda Muslim Terrorists; then some Patriots are likely to start shooting it out with whoever tries to arrest them since they would have nothing to loose. Next since offense is much more effective than defense other Patriots figuring that their abduction will be next might start making preemptive strikes.

Here are some words of wisdom from the past for anyone in denial who says the National Defense Authorization Act S. 1867 could not be used against Patriots:"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen." - Samuel Adams

IYAM, that is pretty much where we are at.

Anyone here who thinks they will get a fair shake in the "Justice" System, is only deluding themselves.

More like Injustice System.

The goal anymore is merely to break us financially, assassinate our character with all the resources of the State obtained through our excessive taxation and then to imprison or kill us. As can be seen from the case of Sgt. Dyer, one can also expect that they will attempt to make our incarceration as miserable as possible.


Fight or Die

Yes, Breacher, our biggest problem isn't the police state itself but the snitch. All those police state dickriders who leap through all the hoops, dot the I's cross the T's, put on the proverbial blackface and go "yassuh boss suh I get you some busts fo you."

Now, the dude wanting to get you or build you a suppressor or a machine gun, or a murder weapon, he's obvious. The not so obvious ones will want you to fill out that FFL, like if he wants you to buy from one of those snitch dealers, or get that registered machine gun or AOW-you get rejected and the BATFags come and bust you and the scumbag gun show owner gets a pat on the head and he can continue his "privleges" awhile longer. Try to tell them their usefullness to the beast will one day be at an end and they don't want to hear it.

Never talk about doing something. Either do or don't.

Just so everyone understands...

Lets be perfectly clear...

If US citizens are no longer afforded any protection under the Geneva convention; then we are not bound to abide by it's rules of war either. I hope those idiots in Washington understand that.

Sir, the rules are. There are not rules. Level of intense violence from the onset of hostilities until completed is required.

Overstating the obvious for most here, and stating the facts for those who just don't understand the rules of engagement.

Leo out

The only rules that truly exist in warfare exist in the minds of those watching on TV or from behind their desk.

I would say rape is not to be tolerated and that families should be left out of it but it appears the govt is more than willing to destroy the families of patriots. That is a profound error of judgment they would be well advised to reconsider.

Other than that, when the gloves come off it is simply time to brawl. Total fucking war.

We are in total agreement. My intentions were not for the innocent but intended for opposition forces and collaborators. Besides, we are so few. Intense brutal violence to the enemy is the only way we can prevail. I am not going to play nice nice with them, be sure of that.

Hence, the rules are, there are not rules. I was taught, that a fight worth fighting is a fight worth winning. If you don't wanna win, don't fight!

Merry Christmas

Leo out

Aw come-on guys. Ya gotta play by the new rules and fight fair.

If we no longer have any right to privacy, nor any right to be secure in our papers, person or effects; then neither do they.

If they can keep us under constant surveillance and monitor our every word and action then the same can be done to them.

If they can maintain lists and databases of information on us, then we can do the same to them.

If they can trespass, break and enter our homes without a warrant, them we don't need one to do the same to them.

If they can indefinitely hold, detain and kidnap our people without formal charges ever being placed against us, and deny our right to face our accusers, have council or a trial by jury, then we can deny them the same "privileges".

If they can assemble "death squads" to eliminate us, then we can do the same to them.

Those people would do well to remember that we will play by the rules of engagement they have established. After all, that's only fair.

ConSigCor
Thank you for the quant way of explaining the rules.
Do onto other as others plan to do onto you.

Right, the playing field is more level than a lot of people think once the game really starts.

And if they come for us one at a time, as they did for Sgt Dyer and the Hutaree, then what?

Everyone has to make their own decisions on that, where their line in the sand is, what they are willing to do, how far they are willing to go with it and who they are willing to do it for.

Personally, for these days, I am limiting myself to the legal defense stuff. I personally don't yet see sufficient levels of public awareness or support for armed resistance to take that sort of or action which would put things on that one way trip past the point of no return. Personally, I think I would have been in more of a position to help those people if I had paid more attention to finishing law school and less on growing the arsenal back in the 1990s when "revolution is just around the corner".

I think it's more important now than it ever has been to get our networking/commo plans in order. We need to be able to network better on a state-to-state basis. I don't think we will be able to rely on the www., or even cells phones for that matter.

Straycat points out something that everyone should be concentrating on.

At this point, the best defense...

Every day open hostilities haven't broken out is a good one. Network and prepare to survive the first mass culling of "troublemakers" as a snitch ffl dealer/cop once muttered about me.

Of course, if you're pushed against the wall, or past your "honey badger limit" or you find yourself getting raided, then open hostilities have started-for you. Them's the breaks.

Couriers would be the most secure,but slow.Under 80 miles digital laser coms are reliable and can not be jammed.Some combination would be best.

My point really was one of what we were going to do as a group.

And I noted the Hutaree and Sgt Dyer as examples because the question is a rhetorical one.

I already know what to expect.
I think we all do.

There will be no collective response.
We are all on our own.
In fact, the responses indicate exactly that.

The only way that anyone can expect any support is if their own small unit of family and close friends becomes involved.

Not surprised.
Not at all.
What I expected.
What I expect.
No problems with that on my end, however unfortunate it is for the cause.

Imagine if there are thousands of small, tightly knit, family based teams and neighborhoods scattered across the CONUS. Imagine that all these teams will have some "friendly" connections with other such groups in their area (force multiplication).

THAT is a collective response. One that will be much harder to infiltrate and or take down.

NATIONAL DEFENSE AUTHORIZATION ACT 2012,allows for the "UNLAWFUL" detention of American civilians by the U.S. military without trial or due process.This one act of congress undoes the "Bill of Rights"on the 220 year anniversary of it's signing.To the day!We stand on the precipice staring into the Abyss,waiting for what is in it too devour us!I say we stop staring ,like deer in the headlights of an oncoming runaway train.And become "LIONS" and devour that which threatens to destroy us!

Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more;

So, what has become of this? At first, you could not get away from it, now you can hardly find anything new about it.

Is this the calm before the storm?

Leo out

I want to apologize to you guys. I fell into the lie, and tried to make it a swimming pool.
I think we have been had again!
I began reading the new Armed Forces Appropriations Act, and looking for all of these "threats to our freedoms" poised by the act. I have thus far come up dry of any new powers. This means that there is something else hidden in the ACT that my looking for specifics has missed. I start again today taking the act down to the amendments it actually changes to find what I missed.
Could all of this Corporate Media allowed Hype be a part of a larger unseen problem?
Every thing in the bill that they are screaming about is already available to the President under Presidential Proclamation and Executive Orders of past presidents.
I will let you know what I find in a few days (947 pages to read).
Remember that in every bill they call it an egg then when the snake hatches we get the shell.

The Bill of Rights cannot be repealed by any legislation, nor can Articles 1 through 10 be amended.

Our individual rights must be exercised, and in so doing, We the People act as law enforcement.

I am not negating the significance of the 2012 NDAA, so much as reminding us that the individual powers vested in the BoR supercede all legislation which runs counter to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

It is my personal responsibility to ensure that my individual rights remain intact.

The only way that anyone can expect any support is if their own small unit of family and close friends becomes involved.

That is the premise I have always operated under.

The fact is they only have the power we allow them to have, the problem is we have sat back and let them have it all.

Obama Regime Warns All Americans: IF YOU FIGHT US YOU WILL DIE!
by TheTotalCollapse.com on December 3, 2011
http://www.thetotalcollapse.com/obama-regime-warns-all-americans-if-you-fight-us-you-will-die

I am a big fan of leaderless resistance at the outset.

Unfortunately, it seems we have carried that to the extreme of impotence.

If all acted in a concerted manner, ie roughly simultaneously, then yes it would be very effective. Don't see that happening.

And I do expect that my initial post on the subject pretty well sums up their plans for us, culminating at some point in a replay of the communists in Hue during Tet.

See, that's the part that pisses me off. He "Obama" thinks that is going to scare us. It may scare the wanna be patriot. But for those of us who truly believe in resisting Tyranny at whatever cost.

The threats only solidify our courage to make a stand against the Tyranny. Talk is cheap and time will tell. Probably sooner rather than later with the escalating times we live in.

Remember this, men of faith arent scared of anything, except their Heavenly Father. That is a reverent fear. However, we can boldly enter his inner sanctum. Cowards we are not!

If we cannot be first in peace, then let us be first in War! They always seem to forget. They bleed too!

Leo out

Have any of you folks found a pdf copy of the signed bill? I have searched for two days. I find quotes, references, reports on but no signed bill.
On the White House bill where they post all Executive Orders, Proclamations, and Memorandum there is a section for legislation. They have no reference to this bill either Pending, Signed, or Vetoed.
The Health care bill was up in 24 hours, but not this one.
This makes a smell I can't find the fire for.
If you see one that goes to a copy of the signed law please post it here.

Not really "leaderless".

Should be highly organized and dispersed. Everyone in agreement on core principles. Keep it local, county level.

Cellular network structure, lead by a safety committee. Real (not make believe), underground support network including E&E, safehouses etc.

Things are to quiet on this topic. The information I mean. Something is not right. They didn't come this far to abandon it.

Assume they are keeping a lid on it?!

Leo out

CBS news discussed this late last night.

They claim it's on Obumers desk as yet unsigned.

They interviewed an attorney who said the gov. had the right to do most anything it wanted to an enemy combatant.

But, she claimed the bill doesn't define that term nor who will make any ultimate decisions.

If the bill declares America a Battlefield,then the entire country is under the Jurisdiction of the U.S.Army Provost Marshall.If no board or committee is named as the discussion making body as to who is and who isn't a terrorist/combatant/belligerent.Left unclear it would be up to the M.P.'s to determine ones status.This means your stopped at a checkpoint an enlisted man asks you a question and you give some lip.He flags you for secondary check(off the road to the right) an N.C.O. declares you a terrorist/combatant/belligerent then off to detention you go.After initial processing it's a bus ride to the FEMA camp where DHS/FEMA/Govn contractors decide your statues.

I agree Walfred, and when they run our names through their data base most of us here will show up on FEMA's Priority Arrest Red List and we will never be seen or heard from again. They would likely execute us at the FEMA camp after they tire of torturing us.

Due to boards like these being monitored.If all of our speculation as to who and who isn't going to be detained are false.
To end all of the could be's, why hasn't someone fron the goverement come out and firmly say don't worry.
Since this hasn't happened. I'm lead to believe this is there true intent.
To label loyal patriotic americans enemies of the state, is nothing more then pure tryanny.

Absolutely.

On all counts.

The last several posts seem to focus on the idea of checkpoints. Well, checkpoints might be one of the things they do that would be the easiest to deal with and should be, post haste.

Just MO though, speaking hypothetically.

The JBTs have been using checkpoints for a long time though. When I was stationed in South Carolina back in my USMC days (late 70s) they were a regular occurrence. They would just block off the main thoroughfares and check everyone out.

These days, they would start them on a larger scale where they would be most accepted by a passive population. Generally, this means finding sheeple in which to instill a sense of fear.

With time, of course, they become a regular occurrence, even in places where there is no threat of there ever being a terrorist act.

Patrol
Ambush
Snipe
Evade

For freedom

The issue then comes up on how you define "true patriots" because you know how the multimillion dollar PR campaign would go:

Lots of good music, some old video footage of the Iraq war, then a good looking group of "veterans" comes on, first showing them in military uniform, then in police uniform with the announcer in a serious tone

"We know who the true patriots are, as they continue to serve our great country in our communities, they stand ready to fight crime and terrorism at home as they did abroad. If you see something, say something...."

"Protect yourself and your community against the growing threats of crime and terrorism, and exercise your rights to keep and bear arms. With those rights come responsibilities, see your local law enforcement agency for details, and if you know of an illegal firearm, don't hesitate to do the right thing and call 1 800 ATF GUNS...

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d112:h.r.1540:

And we need to have our own propaganda campaign.

Show the infringement of our freedoms, the beating of those arrested or detained, the murders of innocents by police because just one of them got an itchy trigger finger.

Show the checkpoints.

Show the loss of freedom over the past decades and the militarization of LE.


Second one,

Show the Redcoats and what happened to them on their long march back to Boston after Concord and Lexington.


Now obviously, they have the upper hand in the propaganda war with regards to their control of the MSM.

Can't give up on that though.

Besides, they can't all hide in their studios and buildings 24/7.


Seems to me you're losing your nerve, Breacher.
No offense. I read your post in which you stated you should have finished law school and put the Militias of the 90s on the back burner.

I certainly see the utility of that.
In some respects I wish I had considered that instead of medicine though the latter is a more noble profession IMO. At least it used to be, probably not so much anymore.

IMO though, the organized "militias" are an f'ing joke. I wouldn't waste 2 minutes on any of them. All infitlrated and seemingly led by inept douchebages with the testicular fortitude God granted a squirrel.

That doesn't mean no one is ready, willing or able to fight if it comes down to it. I could be out the door in short order. I haven't been training and preparing all of my life to cower under my bed when the time comes.

Showing the of the abuse of power by the cops,you tube videos everywhere.
Showing the abuse by the system, also you tube and documentories are out there.
1-800 see something say something all ready in place.
Check points grow by the week.
Police state here depends on what level your in depends on what area you live in.
National guard already being deployed in louisiana to help with gang activivity. Wonder what state is next?
Okalohoma now wants to ban individual militias. Again what state is next?
In a facist police state,those who say they are free. Are as free as the lease they are aloud to have. Pull on that lease to hard and those in power will hang you with your own lease.

Top Legal Expert: “President Obama … Says That He Can Kill [Any American Citizen Without Any Charge and] On His Own Discretion. He Can Jail You Indefinitely On His Own Discretion”

Posted on December 21, 2011 by WashingtonsBlog
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011...indefinit ely-on-his-own-discretion.html

Government Says It Can Assassinate or Indefinitely Detain Americans on American Soil Without Any Due Process of Law

I’ve previously noted that Obama says that he can assassinate American citizens living on U.S. soil.

This admittedly sounds over-the-top. But one of the nation’s top constitutional and military law experts – Jonathan Turley – agrees.

Turley:

Is the second most cited law professor in the country

Has worked as both the CBS and NBC legal analyst during national controversies

Ranks 38th in the top 100 most cited ‘public intellectuals’ in a recent study by a well-known judge

Is one of the top 10 lawyers handling military cases

Has served as a consultant on homeland security and constitutional issues

Is a frequent witness before the House and Senate on constitutional and statutory issues

Turley said yesterday on C-Span (starting at 15:50):

President Obama has just stated a policy that he can have any American citizen killed without any charge, without any review, except his own. If he’s satisfied that you are a terrorist, he says that he can kill you anywhere in the world including in the United States.

Two of his aides just … reaffirmed they believe that American citizens can be killed on the order of the President anywhere including the United States.

You’ve now got a president who says that he can kill you on his own discretion. He can jail you indefinitely on his own discretion

***

I don’t think the the Framers ever anticipated that [the American people would be so apathetic]. They assumed that people would hold their liberties close, and that they wouldn’t relax …

The Government Has Never Given a Rationale for Assassination

While one might assume that the government has given a valid justification for the claim that it can assassinate anyone anywhere, the Washington Post noted yesterday:

In outlining its legal reasoning, the administration has cited broad congressional authorizations and presidential approvals, the international laws of war and the right to self-defense. But it has not offered the American public, uneasy allies or international authorities any specifics that would make it possible to judge how it is applying those laws.

***

“They’ve based it on the personal legitimacy of [President] Obama — the ‘trust me’ concept,” [American University law professor Kenneth Anderson] said. “That’s not a viable concept for a president going forward.”

***

Under domestic law, the administration considers [assassinations] to be covered by the Authorization for Use of Military Force that Congress passed days after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. In two key sentences that have no expiration date, the AUMF gives the president sole power to use “all necessary and appropriate force” against nations, groups or persons who committed or aided the attacks, and to prevent future attacks. [But the government just broadened the authorization for use of military force from those who attacked us on 9/11 to include the Taliban and the vague category of "associated forces".]

***

The authorization did not address targets’ nationality or set geographical boundaries, and there was “nothing about the permission of the government” of any country where a terrorist might be found, the former official said.

And see this.
Almost Any American Could Be Arbitrarily Labeled a “Terrorist”

As I’ve previously noted, this is especially concerning when almost any American could be labeled a “terrorist” if the government doesn’t happen to like them:

It is dangerous in a climate where you can be labeled as or suspected of being a terrorist simply for questioning war, protesting anything, asking questions about pollution or about Wall Street shenanigans, supporting Ron Paul, being a libertarian, holding gold, or stocking up on more than 7 days of food. [And the FBI says that activists who investigate factory farms can be prosecuted as terrorists.] And see this.

And it is problematic in a period in which FBI agents and CIA intelligence officials, constitutional law expert professor Jonathan Turley, Time Magazine, Keith Olbermann and the Washington Post have all said that U.S. government officials “were trying to create an atmosphere of fear in which the American people would give them more power”, and even former Secretary of Homeland Security – Tom Ridge – admitst hat he was pressured to raise terror alerts to help Bush win reelection.

And it is counter-productive in an age when the government – instead of doing the things which could actually make us safer – are doing things which increasethe risk of terrorism.

And it is insane in a time of perpetual war. See this, this, this and this.

And when the “War on Terror” in the Middle East and North Africa which is being used to justify the attack on Americans was planned long before 9/11.

And when Jimmy Carter’s National Security Adviser told the Senate in 2007 that the war on terror is “a mythical historical narrative”. And 9/11 was entirely foreseeable, but wasn’t stopped. Indeed, no one in Washington even wants to hear how 9/11 happened, even though that is necessary to stop future terrorist attacks. And the military has bombed a bunch of oil-rich countries when it could have instead taken out Bin Laden years ago.

***

And – given that U.S. soldiers admit that if they accidentally kill innocent Iraqis and Afghanis, they then “drop” automatic weapons near their body so they can pretend they were militants – it is unlikely that the government would ever admit that an American citizen it assassinated was an innocent civilian who has nothing at all to do with terrorism.

Rep. Landry Offers Amendment to NDAA to Protect Civil Liberties


Joe Wolverton II
The New American
Saturday, December 24, 2011

The National Defense Authorization Act will be made law with the stroke of President Obama’s pen (perhaps autopen from Hawaii?). With the enactment of the NDAA, Americans suspected by the President of having committed a “belligerent act” may be apprehended by the military and detained without recitation of charges and without access to an attorney until such time as the President decides that the “War on Terror” is over.

Majorities in both chambers of Congress voted in favor of granting the President this autocratic authority. In the Senate, only 13 members of that body stood up to defend the constitutionally protected civil liberties of Americans. In the House of Representatives, 283 of the people’s representatives violated their oath of office and voted to pass this legislation.

One of those who was true to his vow to protect the Constituiton from all enemies, foreign and domestic, has now offered an amendment to the NDAA that would “clarify the language” of the measure so as to make it explicit that no American citizen could be detained under the provisions of that act without being provided the full panoply of due process protections.

Freshman Representative Jeff Landry (R-La., above) introduced HR 3676, which would add the following qualification to the portion of the bill — Section 1021 — that provides for indefinite detention of Americans:

United States citizens may not be detained against their will without all the rights of due process afforded to citizens in a court ordained or established by or under Article III of the Constitution of the United States.

A story from The Hill reported, “[H]e [Representative Landry] has a commitment from House Armed Services Committee Chairman Buck McKeon (R-Calif.) to revisit the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) to ensure that language related to detainees does not give the U.S. government new rights to hold U.S. citizens without due process.”

“We have assurances that they would work to clarify the language,” Landry told The Hill. “I have a commitment from the chairman that the type of language I have is the type of language he would use to clarify that.”

As has been reported by The New American, A key component of the NDAA mandates a frightening grant of immense and unconstitutional power to the executive branch. Under the provisions of Section 1021, the President is afforded the absolute power to arrest and detain citizens of the United States without their being informed of any criminal charges, without a trial on the merits of those charges, and without a scintilla of the due process safeguards protected by the Constitution of the United States.

Further, in order to execute the provisions of Section 1021 described in the previous paragraph, subsequent clauses in that section unlawfully give the President the absolute and unquestionable authority to deploy the armed forces of the United States to apprehend and to indefinitely detain those suspected of threatening the security of the “homeland.” In the language of this legislation, these people are called “covered persons.”

The universe of potential “covered persons” includes every citizen of the United States of America. Any American could one day find himself or herself branded a “belligerent” and thus subject to the complete confiscation of his or her constitutional civil liberties and nearly never-ending incarceration in a military prison.

It is this immeasurable cession of power to the executive that Representative Landry and others fear. Landry reports that prior to passage of the NDAA, he conferred with proponents to make sure that habeas corpus and due process would be left intact in the new bill. He was assured that such privations would not be permitted according to the applicable sections of the act. Despite these promises, Landry submitted his amendment in order to close securely any loopholes in the law that may yet exist that could be wrested by the President (Obama and his successors) and used to unlawfully and unconstitutionally arrest and imprison American citizens in violation of the due process requirements set out in the Constitution.

Landry was quoted in The Hill saying, “The problem we’ve had is that Congress over the last 30 years has just not done a good job of basically telling the administration through legislation what the confines of its power are. All we’re trying to do is say look, this is what Congress is trying to intend.”

In a statement released by his office, Representative Landry explained the impetus behind his proposed alterations:

The Founding Fathers granted Congress specific duties; and as a representative of the people, it is my duty to pass laws that protect the Constitutional rights of all American citizens. Toward this end, any statute that could possibly be interpreted to allow a President to detain American citizens without charge or trial is incredibly alarming and should be cautiously scrutinized.

This effort on the part of Congressman Landry is noble and he should be lauded for his commitment to the Constitution and its core civil liberties by which the God-given freedom of all Americans is protected from the frequent attempts at alienation made by the federal government.

Unfortunately, the language does not go far enough and the only solution at this point is for a courageous block of constitutional congressmen to recall the words of their oath of office and absolutely repeal the entire act as soon as President Obama signs it into law.

Furthermore, as all constitutionalists are aware, no half-measures, even well-intentioned ones, will ever serve to restrain a federal authority determined to protect its empire on the Potomac by having the congressional oligarchy hand a crown to a monarchical president.

As Alexander Hamilton warned in The Federalist Papers, such legislative attempts to reduce the scope of federal influence as a matter of course contain various exceptions to powers which are not granted; and, on this very account, would afford a colorable pretext to claim more than were granted. For why do we declare that things shall not be done which there is no power to do?

Now that Congress has agreed on a payroll tax compromise, Washington, D.C. will soon be a ghost town and consideration of the Landry Amendment will likely be put on ice until Congress returns to the Capitol in January.

Landry said that he hopes to present the bill to the House Armed Services Committee as soon as possible. On his website he provides a link to a colloquy (a formal, on-the-record discussion) with House Armed Services Committee Chairman Buck McKeon (R-Calif.) during which Landry was told that the matter would be given a fair hearing and the freedom would be preserved.

Ostensibly the debate in committee on Landry’s bill would shine the bright light of inquiry onto the parts of the underlying legislation that deprive Americans of their most basic of civil liberties. Furthermore, such deliberations might serve to ultimately restrict any malingering mandate of despotic power to the President.

As of the time of publication of this article, Congressman Landry is joined by 30 co-sponsors of his bill including representatives of both political parties.

Maybe its time to go bowling with the heads of some of the traitors. That may encourage the others to do the right thing. Other wise order up another pitcher of beer and start a fresh game.

This may sound harsh for some, but time for talking is over. You either do the right thing [operate within the Constitution] or suffer the consequences.

We are either going to save this Republic or tear it a new Asshole trying!

Tire of fucking around with these Tyrants commie assholes.

Sorry for the blue language. Speaking softly hasn't worked. Time to use the big stick.

Leo out

Agreed. Not sure where the "front lines" are but there is no question that's where we're at. Have been for awhile IMO.

What we need now is an action to provoke the fasco-socialists to act against us with force, as was done after the Boston Tea Party.

It would take a severe blow to their revenue stream to set them off in such a regard.

We need them to fire the first shot(s), however.

IMHO

Since they hold all the cards, there is no reason for them to do so unless provoked. Given the arrogance as well as the ignorance of Obama, Holder and Napolitano, it likely wouldn't take much.

They will inlist the services of another mental case, Arm him, and send him off, FALSE FLAG EVENT, He will claim to be part of some Militia,some guy, maybe a disgruntled former member that was 86ed for being rogue or mental. Some senario like that possibly, Or just attack a group and invent the reason to get it rolling, either way it IS comming. We know for a fact they make stuff up all the time, The wheels on the bus just keep rolling along as far as the masses are concerned. Be ready when it comes and make it count! SEMPER FI

You think they will open the False Flag Playbook and pull the old, tried and true "Timothy McVeigh?"

I will give the tyrants some credit for their creativity, and at least assume that they will somehow implicate Iran in the next FF attack.

IMO, the auspices for door to door roundups will come under the umbrella of a martial law declaration.

Keep your eyes and ears open!

Check-out what some in the Montana State Legislature intend to do:


Montanans Launch Recall of Senators Who Approved NDAA Military Detention. Montanans Launch Recall of Senators Who Approved NDAA Military Detention.

From the press release:

Moving quickly on Christmas Day after the US Senate voted 86 - 14 to pass the National Defense Authorization Act of 2011 (NDAA) which allows for the indefinite military detention of American citizens without charge or trial, Montanans have announced the launch of recall campaigns against Senators Max Baucus and Jonathan Tester, who voted for the bill.

Montana is one of nine states with provisions that say that the right of recall extends to recalling members of its federal congressional delegation, pursuant to Montana Code 2-16-603, on the grounds of physical or mental lack of fitness, incompetence, violation of oath of office, official misconduct, or conviction of certain felony offenses.

...

The Obasterd in chief signed the Bill,Its official.

I knew the Obomination in DC would sign it. I'll bet the socialist/communists traitors will be celebrating it tonight while they sodomize their butt buddies and commit acts of bestiality that the bill legalizes.

They have always said that the FEMA Priority Red List Arrests will start over a holiday weekend too.

Good,Just finished my SKS project this morning,ROCK AND ROLE and SEMPER FI

It is a scientific fact that hungover thugs respond slower and bleed-out faster.

Ron Paul Calls National Defense Authorization Act "Slip Into Tyranny"

Written by Joe Wolverton, II
Friday, 30 December 2011

“A dictator enjoys unrestrained power over the people. The legislative and judicial branches voluntarily cede this power or it’s taken by force. Most of the time, it’s given up easily, out of fear in time of war and civil disturbances, and with support from the people, although the dictator will also accumulate more power with the use of force.” Those prescient words of Republican presidential candidate Congressman Ron Paul (R-Texas) are taken from his book Liberty Defined: 50 Essential Issues That Affect Our Freedom. The tyrannical assumption of power by the President and the cession of unheralded power to him by the Congress has taken place precisely as Dr. Paul warned.

The National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) is an unprecedented, unconstitutional, and unchecked grant of dictatorial power to the President in the name of protecting the security of “the homeland.” Ron Paul described the bill (soon to be signed into law by the President) as a “slip into tyranny,” one that will almost certainly accelerate “our descent into totalitarianism.”

What of the NDAA? Are there indeed provisions contained therein that so ferociously tear at the constitutional fabric of our Republic?

In a word — yes.

This liberty-extinguishing legislation converts America into a war zone and turns Americans into potential suspected terrorists, complete with the full roster of rights typically afforded to terrorists — none.

A key component of this reconciled bill mandates a frightening grant of immense and unconstitutional power to the executive branch. Under the provisions of Section 1021, the President is afforded the absolute power to arrest and detain citizens of the United States without their being informed of any criminal charges, without a trial on the merits of those charges, and without a scintilla of the due process safeguards protected by the Constitution of the United States.

Further, in order to execute the provisions of Section 1021 described in the previous paragraph, subsequent clauses (Section 1022, for example) unlawfully give the President the absolute and unquestionable authority to deploy the armed forces of the United States to apprehend and to indefinitely detain those suspected of threatening the security of the “homeland.” In the language of this legislation, these people are called “covered persons.”

The universe of potential “covered persons” includes every citizen of the United States of America. Any American could one day find himself or herself branded a “belligerent” and thus subject to the complete confiscation of his or her constitutional civil liberties and nearly never-ending incarceration in a military prison.

In his assessment of the danger inherent in such acts, Paul is in good company. This suspension of habeas corpus, a right central to Anglo-American freedom from despotism for over 500 years, was described by Alexander Hamilton as one of “the favorite and most formidable instruments of tyranny.”

Congressman Paul eloquently expressed his assessment of such an assault on liberty:

The president’s widely expanded view of his own authority to detain Americans indefinitely even on American soil is for the first time in this legislation codified in law. That should chill all of us to our cores.

As reported by The Hill, in a phone message to supporters, Paul cited the Founders and their intent to bequeath to their descendants a government fettered in such a way as to threaten as little as possible man’s innate freedom:

The founders wanted to set a high bar for the government to overcome in order to deprive an individual of life or liberty. To lower that bar is to endanger everyone. When the bar is low enough to include political enemies, our descent into totalitarianism is virtually assured. The Patriot Act, as bad as its violation against the Fourth Amendment was, was just one step down the slippery slope. The recently passed National Defense Authorization Act continues that slip into tyranny, and in fact, accelerates it significantly.

Adding insult to injury, Congress has stuffed the bill full of funding for illegal and unconstitutional foreign wars so that the American people will pay over $670 billion dollars for the privilege of being deprived of their God-given rights and for the building of the American empire.

This appalling story doesn’t end there, however. The NDAA’s rap sheet of crimes against the Constitution is long. As Congressman Paul explained:

The Fifth Amendment is about much more than the right to remain silent in the face of government questioning. It contains very basic and very critical stipulations about the due process of law. The government cannot imprison a person for no reason and with no evidence presented and without access to legal counsel. The danger of the NDAA is its alarmingly vague, undefined criteria for who can be indefinitely detained by the U.S. government without trial.

While all the foregoing is harrowing and enough to make any reasonable man fear for the future of this Republic, there is another aspect of the law that is perhaps more frightening still. That is the vagueness of the terms. Terms so ill-defined are ripe for the wresting and within the penumbras of these provisions could be found lurking the tools of tyranny. Wrenches that could force anyone into a predetermined “terrorist” hole.

Ron Paul sets forth the source of such chilling concern as contained in the NDAA:

It is no longer limited to members of al Qaeda or the Taliban, but anyone accused of substantially supporting such groups or associated forces. How closely associated, and what constitutes substantial support? What if it was discovered that someone who committed a terrorist act was once involved with a charity? Or suppose a political candidate? Are all donors of that candidate or supporters of that candidate now suspects and subject to indefinite detainment? Is that charity now an associated force?

Despite the bipartisan and bicameral support for the defense budget bill, President Obama originally vowed to veto the measure over his disagreement with the delegation of power over the cases of detainees.

He has since withdrawn his objection and has signaled his intent to sign the bill into law.

The crux of the White House’s opposition to the NDAA was President Obama’s desire that the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) should have plenary power over the disposition of issues related to the custody and prosecution of all terror suspects detained domestically.

The Obama administration insisted that cutting out the FBI would reduce the overall effectiveness of investigations, as well as hamstring the efforts of intelligence officers from gathering reliable intelligence from those believed to be fighting against the United States in Afghanistan or Iraq.

Specifically, the White House promised to veto the legislation if it “challenges or constrains the President’s critical authorities to collect intelligence, incapacitate dangerous terrorists, [or] protect the nation.”

Such swords disguised as shields are reminiscent of the words of James Madison. The Father of the Constitution warned, “The means of defense against foreign danger historically have become instruments of tyranny at home.”

Again, Ron Paul finds himself in the company of the Founders. In his closing remarks, Congressman Paul cited very succinctly the indictment that should be handed down by the American people against the NDAA:

The Bill of Rights has no exceptions for really bad people or terrorists or even non-citizens. It is a key check on government power against any person. That is not a weakness in our legal system; it is the very strength of our legal system. The NDAA attempts to justify abridging the Bill of Rights on the theory that rights are suspended in a time of war, and the entire United States is a battlefield in the war on terror. This is a very dangerous development, indeed. Beware.

Beware, indeed.

Act of War is what this is.

They just keep building the fences around us and one day all they have to do is close the gate.

There has been concern, especially coming out of Michigan, that local Islamic militants had compromised the FBI offices there. You can look it up elsewhere on the net, but people in the military now think that the FBI overall may in fact be compromised with regard to Islamic militants operating training facilities and planning their own operations here in the US.

So this is being put in place to legally legitimize some of what has been going on already anyway, but on our end of it and the military end of it, a lot of this is a wait and see approach.

It is one thing to speculate on who is targeted by who and why, entirely another when the hammers drop and the bullshit stops.

There is absolutely nothing new under the sun when it comes to secret arrests, detentions, executions or assassinations, but what is currently going on is the wrangling and positioning between the various arms of the government that feel they have a game to play.

Our end of of it, in my opinion, needs to be the same as it always was on any other possible scenario. Prepare, wait, see, and respond appropriately if action is taken against us or those we care about.

The government of Iran has declared war on us a long time ago,

same with North Korea, several other militant and dictators, some aspiring racial demagogues, a few members of the Russian Duma, some Red Chinese communist die-hards, I think FARC, Hugo Chavez, maybe the Zapatistas...the list goes on.

Oh, and some Zetas apparently specified some of the border militias in their declaration of war against the US while they seemed to have been getting along quite well with their weapons suppliers in the BATF...

While I don't normally approve of Infowars except as a link to the truth this link does a bang up job of breaking it down to who, when, where, and how.

http://www.infowars.com/myth-busted...ericans-and-heres-the-text-that-says-so/

This photo is starting to make the internet rounds:



Onward and upward,
airforce

THE INAUGURATION OF POLICE STATE USA 2012. Obama Signs the “National Defense Authorization Act ”


Michel Chossudovsky
Global Research
Monday, January 2, 2012

With minimal media debate, at a time when Americans were celebrating the New Year with their loved ones, the “National Defense Authorization Act ” H.R. 1540 was signed into law by President Barack Obama. The actual signing took place in Hawaii on the 31st of December.

According to Obama’s “signing statement”, the threat of Al Qaeda to the Security of the Homeland constitutes a justification for repealing fundamental rights and freedoms, with a stroke of the pen.

The controversial signing statement (see transcript below) is a smokscreen. Obama says he disagrees with the NDAA but he signs it into law.

“[I have] serious reservations with certain provisions that regulate the detention, interrogation, and prosecution of suspected terrorists.”

Obama implements “Police State USA”, while acknowledging that certain provisions of the NDAA are unacceptable. If such is the case, he could have either vetoed the NDAA (H.R. 1540) or sent it back to Congress with his objections.

The “National Defense Authorization Act ” (H.R. 1540) is Obama’s New Year’s “Gift” to the American People.

He justifies the signing of the NDAA as a means to combating terrorism, as part of a “counter-terrorism” agenda. But in substance, any American opposed to the policies of the US government can –under the provisions of the NDAA– be labelled a “suspected terrorist” and arrested under military detention.

“Moreover, I want to clarify that my Administration will not authorize the indefinite military detention without trial of American citizens. Indeed, I believe that doing so would break with our most important traditions and values as a Nation. My Administration will interpret section 1021 in a manner that ensures that any detention it authorizes complies with the Constitution, the laws of war, and all other applicable law.”

Barack Obama is a lawyer (a graduate from Harvard Law School). He knows fair well that his signing statement –which parrots his commitment to democracy– is purely cosmetic. It has no force of law.

His adminstration “will not authorize” what? The implementaiton of a Law signed by the US president?

Section 1021 is crystal clear. The Executive cannot refuse to implement it. The signing statement does not in any way invalidate or modify the actual signing by President Obama of NDAA (H.R. 1540) into law.

“Democratic Dictatorship” in America

The “National Defense Authorization Act ” (H.R. 1540) repeals the US Constitution. While the facade of democracy prevails, supported by media propaganda, the American republic is fractured. The tendency is towards the establishment of a totalitarian State, a military government dressed in civilian clothes.

The passage of NDAA is intimately related to Washington’s global military agenda. The military pursuit of Worldwide hegemony also requires the “Militarization of the Homeland”, namely the demise of the American Republic.

In substance, the signing statement is intended to mislead Americans and provide a “democratic face” to the President as well as to the unfolding post-911 Military Police State apparatus.

The “most important traditions and values” in derogation of The Bill of Rights and the US Constitution have indeed been repealed, effective on New Year’s Day, January 1st 2012.

The NDAA authorises the arbitrary and indefinite military detention of American citizens.

The Lessons of History

This New Year’s Eve December 31, 2011 signing of the NDAA will indelibly go down as a landmark in American history.

If we are to put this in a comparative historical context, the relevant provisions of the NDAA HR 1540 are, in many regards, comparable to those contained in the “Decree of the Reich President for the Protection of People and State”, commonly known as the Reichstag Fire Decree (Reichstagsbrandverordnung) enacted in Germany under the Weimar Republic on 27 February 1933 by President (Field Marshal) Paul von Hindenburg.

Implemented in the immediate wake of the Reichstag Fire (which served as a pretext), this February 1933 decree was used to repeal civil liberties including the right of Habeas Corpus.

Article 1 of the February 1933 “Decree of the Reich President for the Protection of People and State” suspended civil liberties under the pretext of “protecting” democracy: “Thus, restrictions on personal liberty, on the right of free expression of opinion, including freedom of the press, on the right of association and assembly, and violations of the privacy of postal, telegraphic, and telephonic communications, and warrants for house-searches, orders for confiscations, as well as restrictions on property rights are permissible beyond the legal limits otherwise prescribed.” (Art. 1, emphasis added)

Constitutional democracy was nullified in Germany through the signing of a presidential decree.

The Reichstag Fire decree was followed in March 1933 by Enabling Act ( Ermächtigungsgesetz) which allowed (or enabled) the Nazi government of Chancellor Adolf Hitler to invoke de facto dictatorial powers. These two decrees enabled the Nazi regime to introduce legislation which was in overt contradiction with the 1919 Weimar Constitution.

The following year, upon the death of president Hindenburg in 1934, Hitler “declared the office of President vacant” and took over as Fuerer, the combined function’s of Chancellor and Head of State.

THE INAUGURATION OF POLICE STATE USA 2012. Obama Signs the “National Defense Authorization Act


Obama’s New Year’s Gift to the American People

To say that January 1st 2012 is “A Sad Day for America” is a gross understatement.

The signing of NDAA (HR 1540) into law is tantamount to the militarization of law enforcement, the repeal of the Posse Comitatus Act and the Inauguration in 2012 of Police State USA.

As in Weimar Germany, fundamental rights and freedoms are repealed under the pretext that democracy is threatened and must be protected.

The NDAA is “Obama’s New Year’s Gift” to the American People. …

Michel Chossudovsky, Montreal, Canada, January, 1st 2012

I mean seriously, who is this supposed to really scare? Canadian soccer moms?

If this ever becomes a reality we go from conspiracy theorist nutjob losers to freedom fighting national heroes.

So what if those Canadian soccer mom types are all worried. You know damn well who would be diming you out the minute they spot you with a black gun with a magazine too long and barrel too short. Burning up the phone lines at the FBI if you pick up some 34-0-0 for stump blasting on the back forty because you can't afford some $150 per hour prick with heavy equipment.

My opinion, America (and Canada because really they are just as responsible for this as anyone in Washington since they paraded half this police state shit on television propaganda while pretending to be American) need to suffer these home brewed creations before I get back to tilting windmills for anyone with a track record for not supporting any of our freedom fighters.

I say we train, prepare and protect our own, then when more people wake up and are willing to unleash some justice, then will see what action is appropriate.

I can still remember back to all of those letter of protests and TV shows about eminent domain seizures in Pennsylvania a while back (not). Seems I remember FALSarge and his crew getting rolled up in retaliation for helping out some farm family that faced getting their property confiscated over some town wanting it to build a private golf course. He got less of a homecoming party out of prison than your average crack dealing MTV shit talking hood rat who did time for pistol whipping his babies momma.

Oh, and on Indefinite Detention, shall we visit how Mark Koernke or any of our other guys got treated in prison when it was not national news like in the Bladerunner case?

Now check this video out, and see what your opinion really would be if .gov went after these guys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebg6AFylios

Now personally, if .gov goes after those guys and they start striking back, well, that's their issue. Their idea is that if they get screwed with, they will screw back. That's their deal. I would not take action against them unless they pretty directly messed with me and mine.

I hear the talk of the instructor in this, he is probably ex-military of some sort. I am going over some archive footage from a little bit of journalism I did a couple months ago and think I ran into one of the guys.

Now from a professional standpoint, if paid to get involved, eh, well, my take on that is they started it when one of those "muslim convert" guys out of Michigan participated in setting up the Hutaree.

H.R. 3166 Enemy Expatriation Act


Now Congress is trying to pass legislation to take away your U.S. citizenship if you are "engaging in or supporting hostilities against the United States". In other words, if you attempt to fight government tyranny, they will strip you of your citizenship and you will have no constitutional rights. This is the next step towards government tyranny after Obama just signed the NDAA.

As Breacher points out, the government has been engaging in a lot of this stuff for years. But, now that the trashing of the constitution is codified into law, you can look for them to be much more open and blatant about it. More than likely this will be implemented incrementally. The deceived people will gradually become acclimatized to this tyranny. First they'll go after the Muslims and the masses will roar with approval thinking "IT" can never happen to them. AFTER Obumer is reselected as the HNIC they will go after us. Keep in mind that the tyrants would love for us to fire on Sumpter first; which would give them the excuse to implement everything all at once.

And the hits just keep on coming. Niiccceeee!


Leo out

You have to go back to the 1800's. There was an enemy repatriation act passed before there was a 14th Amendment.
The title 'US CITIZEN" is not the same as "AMERICAN". I am an American! I am proud of it!
Here I go getting clerical. The term US CITIZEN is based upon the 14th Amendment. It was developed because the united States of America government was closed in 1861 and the new United States of America was incorporated in Delaware as a Corporation to manage Washington DC. (DC Organic Act of 1871).
Thomas Jefferson was an American not a US Citizen, so was George Washington, John Adams, and the rest of the founding fathers.
When the Corporation commits a breach of law they must give you an out. This is that out.
If you send them notice that you are not a US Citizen their laws do not apply. That is unless you sign another contract and cause yourself to be in dishonor by asking for their benefits.

H.R.3166;It's clear the law is meant to make all of us Legal Aliens.We didn't sneak in to America.We were born here and then they made us "NOT" Natural born residents.Like Obama,Osama or Odamna.That way we are here but,we don't "BELONG" here.Like the native tribes.If you don't legally recognize a people you can justify doing just about anything to them.Like stop them from moving freely on the land(TSA checkpoints).Or,put them on reservations(FEMA camps).And,if any holdouts(refusniks) don't go with the soldiers(get on the bus) you can just shoot them.finally,if any renegade alien people(Militia,their families and supporters) remain on the land you can destroy their homes and food supply.Until they come in or die.

Any one who claims to be a sovereign American.Or talks about freedom is now an enemy of the state.So it is the state that is alien to the Republic and is the enemy of the sovereign people of America and must be removed.

Gentlemen,prepare to defend yourselves.With your children at your feet!

If we have to fight to maintain our freedom and God given constitutional rights then children should be sent away to stay with friends or relatives. But hopefully we can back the tyrants down again like we did in the 1990s. Arm up, train, and prepare while you still can.

Im hearing you guys and agree with you for the most part. However, this thought just does not leave my mind. Sending away your family. I think its just gonna be a crappy deal anyway you slice it. Its because of that. I am going to keep my family within a generally close proximity.

Some may say Im foolish for doing so. You may be right. This I know, the enemy will have no hesitation in using your family or loved ones against you. Just like using food as weapon. Same process.

Another thought is. I hopefully will be able to keep some kind of watch over them with no real frequency. Essentially killing BMF's near and around their area. We all know that the situation will dictate.

As I am partly Native American, we do not scare and are unafraid of what is to come.

Leo out

BINGO.

Look at the history of NAZI Germany. Our rogue government is following their lead to a tee. In the near future anyone who doesn't support the party will be labeled a dangerous, evil communist threat to the security of the fatherland. All who dissent will become the new Jew and treated as such.

Just got off the horn with the old man. He thinks I have a tin foil hat on. I talked to him about the new bill Obama signed into law and the one about stripping our citizenship away from us.

He told me that wont happen and could not happen. I told him that he was WRONG. He just doesn't get it and wont get until he sees troops marching down his road.

He's all, the Marines wont ever be used against America and he hasn't seen any activity or suggestion of such activity. So, you know. My younger brother is a 2112 and is getting out in March. My other brother is in the chair force as a meteorologist attached to a Army unit.

He seriously feels he has his finger on the pulse and just does not see anything we are seeing. Gotta go. Had a brain hemorrhage talking to him and am just unloading. Sorry.

Leo out

Anyone who has paid the slightest attention over the past 30 years and still goes LALALALALALA! with their fingers in their ears probably deserves martial law.

The NDAA is meant to scare Sally Soccer Mom from listening to ANY dissenting speech; they'll put their fingers in their ears, go LALALALALA and when you're out of sight maybe drop the dime.

The Muslim extremists in this country are likely being tolerated and even encouraged in order to further scare Sally Soccer Mom when they're cued to do something stupid. That being said most Muslims are well aware they are an isolated minority in America and they're not hard to find, and more than a few are going to wind up victims of any fracturing of Our America.

That's the plan: collapse and fracture America into a civil war battle royale, while our enemy manages it, taking out anyone or any group that's a threat. Hide well.

One thing I do worry about and something I touched on in my short story The Future Of Warfare will be all the drones they'll be fielding. Those remote controlled killing machines have already changed the battlefield, and there will be MILLIONS of potential out of work gamers needing three hots and a cot. Bet the enemy will provide... I mean, who has the advantage, a ragged, starving unit of men in a hostile environment or some 300lb porker with a joystick in one hand and a Hot Pocket in the other... probably one of those toilet chairs from Idiocracy so he don't have to go to the bathroom.

I worry.

Your right. They deserve what they get if their just gonna blow off what is painfully obvious to just about anyone with a pulse.

Had to laugh at the joystick in one hand and hot pocket in the other. Thanks, that was funny. The worry part. Thats a tough one. Hard on my mind sometimes too.

I say, when they screw up, we capitalize on their mistakes and make them pay a hell of a lot more than us. Its our only choice. Excluding surrender. This is not an option!

Leo out

Well, Marlin goose guns can only reach so far so counters to drone tech will have to be found. We won't have a production facility churning out expendable electronics so producing surface to air missiles isn't likely, you can't count on capturing ordnance, so you need a drone.

...Except that the bad guys will have an AIR FORCE full of jet fighters explicitly designed and built to shoot down enemy jet fighters. Worse, they will have control of the electromagnetic spectrum; they can jam any control signal, even using spread spectrum technology so the drone will need to be fully automated. Fortunately, it doesn't take a Intel chip worth of computing power for a air to air missile. Airframe, sensors(I favor audio and optical recognition) can be had relatively easy or built. The engine will have to be simply constructed which rules out jet turbines-it will be rockets and ramjets.

Basically we need work arounds and the ability to adapt existing technology.

The mil will fracture and some will join the sovereign American people...At first only the few like us.But,as the body count rises many more and they will all bring intel/tech/equipment with them.

As for the weatherman in the Airforce,he is either to low on the totem pole to know what's about to happen.Or,he's lying to he's fam to stay out of trouble.

A member of my network is related to an Airforce NCO.He was told to be ready to move quickly and go straight to Vandenburg,when SHTF.That's where the families of the few they need to pull this Shit of will go and be "SAFE".Also March and Edwards in my A.O.Both of the two later will be drone com/con centers.

We are north of 5m Militia trained over the entire U.S.A.Mostly vet's and those who train with them at an FTX.

30-40mil hunter/survivalist types with rifles and ammo.They are a reserve and untrained(NCO's will train them in the field as they arrive) but good shots.

230mil(180 mil with the letter(R)when they vote) registered gun owners.We'll see what they really stand for when SHTF.


8-10 billion guns(from 1860-2012)and many trillions rounds(1.5mil guns and 283 billion rounds bought between aug 08'-march 10').On the book since they start keeping track in 93',2.5 handguns for every man,woman and child in America.That's +800mil pistols that they know of.

These numbers are why the enemy is taking so long and building so much to face a mountain of guns/ammo.They can't win if we are backed by 2%(60mil) of the population.Last I checked we were supported by 25% in 2005.Thanks to BHO we may be at 45%(pole show 65% think the American people are targeted for destruction but aren't sure by whom)or more now.

Note:We don't need a majority,we are protecting the constitution and the sovereignty of the American people.Weather or not they agree (and most do or close enough).The facts are in and the evidence is documented by congress it's self.The government is the enemy of the constitution and there for the enemy of Freedom and Justice in America.

People worry too much about fighting the military. In most cases that will be a losing situation. Instead folks should be gathering intell and planning how to take out those who issue the orders to the enforcers of tyranny.

It's a target rich environment. Petty tyrants and bureaucrats are a dime a dozen.

A good friend recently started a site and wrote this on the topic:

http://www.whatisaplanner.com/Death%20of%20Freedom.htm

Well, once things get going, the tail will be protecting the head and will be doing so in a multilayered defense.

I have many thoughts on this topic but they are not nearly PC enough to be laid out here.

Beyond petty tyrants and bureaucrats, all far easier targets than those giving the orders, are an army of informants and leftist scum.

What people must also come to terms with is this will not be a replay of the first Civil War, it is one in which the book will be rewritten. It will not be fought on any distant battlefield, not even in well delineated lines. It will be fought everywhere. EVERYWHERE. For every single square inch of ground and there will be far more weapons than bullets and bombs. Food, water, clothing, heat, energy.

Total
Fucking
War

Get it through your heads guys.

--Total ruthlessness
--Every tool at your disposal, not just the obvious
--Little to no room for mercy-this will be forced upon us, I am afraid, as they try to starve into submission.

IMO this could very likely make the first Civil War look like a picnic in the park.

drharhead,

I was trying to be pc ...didn't want to give out too many details.

Your post is spot on the mark. People should study the guerilla war that occurred in E.T. and western N.C. It made Bosnia look like a boy scout jamboree. People were still killing each other 20 years after hostilities were declared done and over.

I was trying to be PC also...

Brother how did you come up with that number of gun owners?

The latest estimate of the number of Gun Owners is 80 to 90 Million not 230 Million.

And the number of Guns Owned is estimated to be around 250 Million which is a long way from 8 to 10 Billion.

Another thing, how did you come up with that figure of 25% of the People supporting us, which by the way is close to the percentage of Gun Owners who I believe will be Fighting for Freedom?

As I see it, even if you are incorrect and there are only 80 Million Gun owners and we only own 250 Million Firearms and only 2% to 3% of just the Gun Owners are willing to fight that will equal 1.6 Million to 2.4 Million very angry armed men to fight for freedom and that is enough to not only win but fairly easily win the coming war.

And I also believe that the percentage of Gun Owners who will fight will be over 10% and maybe even over 25% and 25% of 80 Million is, 20 Million that is 20,000,000 very ticked off and heavily armed men and even some women and that will be more then enough Fighters to not only easily Win the War but to even Win in only one week of less and maybe without firing very many rounds.

And added to the number of Armed Patriots who will be doing the shooting will be the unarmed Patriots who I believe will number in the Tens of Millions, with the result that a large percentage of the Elected Scum may escape to any country that will except them to avoid the Hot Tar and Feathers that they deserve.

If I am correct about the percentage of Gun Owners and non Gun Owners who will be actively Fighting For Freedom will so totally overwhelm the enemy that the Law Enforcers and Military may give up without firing a single shot or at least very few shots as the Administration and Congressional Rats abandon ship.

I've bin saying the same thing for year AIRFORCE,this will be the most one side war in American History.Only co-intel agents claim we can't win.

I've bin saying the same thing for years SNIPER,this will be the most one side war in American History.Only co-intel agents claim we can't win.


The numbers are based on all arms produced for wars and sold as surplus after every war in addition to Private sales from legal gun shops/makers and off the books gunsmith(more then you think,espl. back in the day) since 1860'.Steel produce before would be totally unreliable to say the least.Now,I'm not saying a trained individual should strike out armed with an Enfield or Browning from the 1860's(the later being a better choice).But,if your a civilian untrained under attack,standing with patriots and all you got is Great Grandpappy's old battle rifle.Well give it all you got with all you got.Then pickup something newer off the battlefield.

Excellent post...should be read by all...especially the traitors in congress.

Figure if they come for you, a fight and possible death is better than surrender and spending the rest of your life in unrelenting torment.

Some of the members of this board do not like Movies or Television, but some things can be learned from those things.

Take the movie Speed, in that movie the Good Guys, the Swat Cops raided the the Bad Guy an Ex Bomb Squad Cop's house and when the Swat Cops entered the house there was no one home. The Bad Guy, the ex bomb squad cop had rigged his house to self destruct which it did while it was filled with the Good Guy Swat Cops. That was not a very good day to be a Swat Cop.

There was also a WW2 Movie where the evil Japanese were hitting an old Ships Captain on his own ship. This Captain after being slapped in the face by an evil Jap Officer, tapped his Smoking Pipe against a water pipe which was a signal to his First Mate who was below in the hold right next to a large amount of Dynamite. The First Mate then set off the Dynamite blowing the ship up and all those evil Japs to hell.

Then there was Star Trek the Search for Spock where the evil Klingons boarded the Enterprise and the crew was missing and the only sound was the Ships Computer saying Five, Four, Three, Two, one. Goodbye to all those evil Klingons.


A personal Self Destruct or Dooms Day device is not very hard to construct. Although I do not know how to make the stuff that goes Kaboom, Chemistry is not my thing, the electronics part, the Dead Mans Switch is very easy to make. I will not explain how to make the switch since I am a very nice and peaceful man and that would not be a very nice thing for me to do, plus I am a very very Law Abiding person.

Oh, a Dead Mans Switch is a switch where pressing a button arms it and releasing it sets off the Kaboom, so if someone shoots you it will cause the Kaboom to happen.

A Dead Mans Switch is more fun to use since you can look at the fear in the face of the enemy since they know they will die and can't do a darn thing to prevent it.

By the way a Grenade with the Pin Pulled makes a passable substitute but in a smaller way.

Back in the Old Days of the Cold War there was a saying, Better Dead then Red and the way things are currently in what is left of our once great Republic, that is a very good saying to keep in mind when the Evil Enemy comes to call.

You know you are talking Maccabean stuff with that Sniper, the hard core side of faith that King James wanted left out of the Christian bibles.

One important thing when getting burned is getting the word out on who the rats are along with their methods. That might even prove more important than taking a JBT or two with you, and can guarantee the deaths of more guilty parties. Now the enemy might figure out ways to play that, like making some guy think it is an innocent member of his group who turned him in, but getting reports back can sometimes be more important than a heroic last act.

I remember when I was going to guest lectures at my university and they had some Polish resistance guy from WW2 whose job at one time had not only been to infiltrate Auschwitz, but to escape from the place and report details of its operation to allied command. Then he went back again to assist in some resistance operations against the Nazis, then dropped some hints that his postwar career involved anti-communist activities. Once he "came out" as an anti-communist, some Jews tried laying into him during the question and answer session. That in part had to do with the fact that the resistance did have some sort of pipeline for smuggling small numbers of people out of the camp, but never made a major push to liberate the whole place before it was liberated by the Soviets during their push westward.

That's one of the big moral issues over the legitimacy of resistance movements and any occupier/oppressor government operating prison camps of any sort where the resistance has some resource limitations but gets selective in who they are helping to escape from such places, or focusing resources on attacking the occupier when logic was that "liberating the Bastille" would in theory provide a lot more motivated recruits for the resistance. Apparently there is some part of the new Batman movie where Bane and his people liberate a prison and the prisoners are seen going through some door or breach in the wall toting AK47s that were freshly handed to them. The image then is implied to be one of danger and menace, you could imagine why.

The Irish have also done the thing in British prisons of infiltrating the prisons then selectively arranging for the escapes of some of their people. Their "green book" has protocols for dealing with incarceration, but we just don't know enough about how this indefinite detention thing works.

Right now we are looking into a situation in another forum where it looks like someone fairly well known but disliked on the net got picked up like this, we are studying his situation to see what is going on with it to see if any new protocols are being used.

Well, keep us posted, Breacher.

As you said, it is important to get that info out here.

One important thing when getting burned is getting the word out on who the rats are along with their methods. That might even prove more important than taking a JBT or two with you, and can guarantee the deaths of more guilty parties. Now the enemy might figure out ways to play that, like making some guy think it is an innocent member of his group who turned him in, but getting reports back can sometimes be more important than a heroic last act.

ding, ding, ding.

What good does it do to get the word out when we don't do anything about any of it?


I did put the story of my recent assault and MY arrest for it on the other forum so that if something happens to me the word will get out about what happened to me at the hands of the piglets but it won't change anything in the long run if they frame me or kill me. Not a damn thing.

When patriots start disappearing we will know the NDAA/Red List arrests have started and that will kick off the war to restore our God given constitutional rights. They can't get us all at once and those who are captured can be freed from the FEMA Camps unless the traitors decide to just execute the detainees. It is an all or nothing situation. Some of us can see what is coming and are feeling real froggy but all frogs have to jump at the same time. If you jump too soon you don't have a chance.

They can get a lot the leadership pretty quickly IMO.

How are you going to do a prison break?
Gitmo?
Not so easy to do even with an entire platoon of patriots.

Everyone should be using Codes with their brothers in arms. Text a code whenever necessary to others in your militia network. Make sure they have your back. This will work great for a group of 3percenters.
Code 1: All is well
Code 2: Suspicious activity in my area. (all persons should be on alert status)
Code 3: There is definitely dangerous activity in my area. (all persons should have all gear loaded and ready to go on a moments notice)
Code 4: I am under attack by civilian entities. (all persons receiving the text should immediately get to that persons location, locked, loaded and ready for battle)
Code 5: I am under attack by government entities. (all persons receiving the text should immediately get to that persons location, locked, loaded and ready for battle)

That's great. Won't do me any good where I'm at but it is a damn good idea.

I'm on my own. Period.

And I'm okay with that.

Shepard don't forget Code: 6 "AVENGE ME" like the father in the concentration camp in Red Dawn said to his sons.

If you are alone then start a militia drjarhead.

Most militias are organized more like leaderless resistance cell groups than a military hierarchy.

They are activating FEMA camps all over. I think there are to many patriots to put us all in gitmo. But their plan might be to just execute us.

Obviously people under these circumstances need to be making their own very adult decisions about what to do, I am only presenting the options as I see them.

From what I can tell, there were no lone wolf retaliatory actions when the Hutaree got rolled up, but then that was a pretty carefully orchestrated operation where none were killed either.

The tipping point from what I have seen has been when innocent bystanders are killed by government operatives, whether it has been overseas or here. The Boston Massacre as seen by the early patriots, the Kent State killings as seen by 1970s militants, some of the larger scale incidents in Northern Ireland were played one of two ways:

If the Irish won some skirmish, then it was a victory that emboldened their existing force and supporters, however the British later on deftly played the victim role in a few incidents where the attacks of the Irish were deemed to be "cowardly", like some Irish calling themselves commandos over killing some low level unarmed patrol officer in England.

If the British won some incident tactically, then it was a "dastardly ambush", and if there were innocents caught in the crossfire, blame went to whoever initiated the gunbattle (as is in established US law also). Generally speaking, the "we need to right the wrong" line was played by Irish recruiters and fundraisers after the incident.

When word leaked of Abu Graib, it emboldened a lot of the Iraq resistance, again, their idea of "righting the wrongs" and somehow forgetting that a lot of those people being given a taste of hell there were former guards, lackeys of the Saddam regime and criminals who were taking advantage of the WROL situation in Iraq to commit heinous personal crimes. Sloppiness in handling apparently had mixed some fairly innocent Iraqis into the piles (literally) of the guilty.

I am not going to begrudge someone surrendering or making a grand last stand, but pointing that there are some legitimate ways to see it more than one way. Among military/political minded people respect goes to those who maintain a cool head and get information out, among warrior minded people, respect goes to those who go out in a blaze of glory with a suitable escort to Valhalla announcing whatever needs to be announced.

In a more serious situation, I think to the opening scenes of the Homefront game (a mandatory simulation experience for board members here). There is a mass arrest and execution being carried out by the occupying Asian forces against the population of Montrose Colorado. The resistance, with limited resources and limited support carries out a prisoner rescue operation on the main player character, then when the resistance gains some steam, they do a couple of larger breakouts, but at not point are they actually "liberating" the entire area. Check out the game and some of the articles and youtube channels on what was researched to bring it about.

Now back to the indefinite detention centers. I am thinking that one demographic right now that has been fairly regularly picked up and held in indefinite detention with little or no objection from most of the patriot movement are the illegal aliens. Hate to see the karma coming to a lot of people from not having stood up for the rights of undocumented immigrants.

So on one hand, there is the issue of limited resources that keeps any resistance movement from fighting on behalf of everybody all of the time, and then there is the patriotic thing of taking "with liberty and justice for all" very seriously, seriously enough to do some killing and dying for. Somewhere in the middle of that, or perhaps on some extreme end, individuals will be needing to decide where to stand on that.

Their plan is do as they did at Hue during Tet.
They will get all they can as rapidly as they can before word gets out.
They would prefer to imprison us for propaganda purposes but those carrying out the missions will gladly execute us.

There is no doubt in my mind that is what we can expect. No doubt whatsoever.

One more thing:

Don't expect us to be taken places that are soft targets. Not going to happen.

I know for a fact I've broken no laws. I'll know just as well if I do break their laws. So if the SOB's kick in my door at 0 dark 30...

Everyone here knows what reason their door gets knocked on. What happens next is up to the individual.

That's the real question at this point, because every place I am seeing that is presented as a FEMA camp is a relatively soft target, not a maximum security facility.

Nobody I know of in recent history has pulled off an open raid on a maximum security facility except I have heard of some mass escapes in Mexico where some staff were bribed/coerced into cooperating, and those who were not in on the deal had gunfights with paramilitary cartel enforcers who were going in on a paid contract to extract some cartel shotcallers. The sheer size of the operation of a mass prison takedown will for the most part prevent it from being in the venue of an unconventional paramilitary force. The raid on the Hanoi Hilton in the later stages of the Vietnam war was one such conventional force action. Sure SF personnel were used, but it's no secret what is going down when helicopter gunships show up to shred the guard barracks and heavily armed dudes with regular uniforms and black facepaint are rappelling into the courthyard from other helicopters, complete with fighter jet air cover and AC130s sweeping nearby roads when enemy reinforcements start to mobilize.

Likewise though, the raid on the Hanoi Hilton was carried out with information gained from debriefing men who had been prisoners there. From what I am told, the enemy had intel or figured something like that might be coming, so the remaining prisoners had been evacuated, but the US forces sure as shit shredded the hell out of anyone who was likely have been involved with torturing downed airmen.

The FEMA camps will be for what they consider low grade threats.

Don't know where I fall in that.

When Iran is attacked all the new "UNLAWFUL" laws will be put to use(on us),and the war here will begin.Think "spring offensive",if not sooner...

My network reports many mil personnel are requesting to move on base with their families.

Well, since I have absolutely zero zip nada plans for acting as a fifth column on behalf of the Iranian government, I think some official open statements of denial of involvement would be appropriate then do the wait and see thing again. This gets to be the thing where having a validated spokesperson for every concievable group matters.

It is a common activity for the spokespeople for various groups or movements or even action cells to put out a communique accepting or denying responsibility for something that has happened.

Now looking at the Hutaree situation, they are saying nothing, which does not look good, but I would guess the judge is playing dirty and has them on some sort of gag order. Credibility cuts both ways on all of this.

The problem, the real problem, is being the side that comes up with vague conspiracy theories which are used to take "pre-emptive action" and even worse, when that pre-emptive action kills innocent bystanders. That's where the FBI really lost a lot of points on the Charles Dyer situation. They are lacking evidence of the real justification for going so heavy handed on some innocent bystanders with the SWAT teams in Texas and Florida. Dyer had no bomb, was nowhere near any bomb, and obviously lacked any resources even remotely close to being "another Timothy McVeigh".

I am hearing reports of the FBI agent's supervisor now showing up to the court proceedings in the Dyer case. Could be he is taking a personal interest in it, or quite possibly, it is not a show of solidarity, but a show that he no longer trusts the words of the subordinate agents or the local agencies who requested their involvement.

There was/is? a gag order on the Hutaree last I heard.

I would be surprised if the FBI supervisor is on anyone's side but the govt in the Dyer case. Maybe we'll be surprised but somehow I doubt it.

If we cant get it together. Lets get it on!

Been thinking on mass prison break operations:

1.)Where's the prison located? Typically they will be in depressed rural communities which are dependent on it for their economic survival, and if there long enough the local adopt a kind of 'strawboss' mentality because their men and women work there and boss convicts around. So staging the assault in/around these small towns won't work.

2.)The prison and its defenses; they're configured mostly for keeping convicts in, not repelling a major military assault.... that's what it would take to pull that off. What you will have to count on however is an immediate response from every police department within a hundred miles, state troopers, national guard and US military, so you have to figure out what is the opfor.

3.)Your ins an outs. Six ways in, 12 ways out is the saying but if there's only a few or even one road you will need cross country equipment.

4.)Weapons and provisions-I'm assuming an illegitemate government sweeping up Americans en masse. You got weapons-even .22 rifles? Crates of milsurp bolt action rifles with bandoliers would work fine. What about food, clothing, transport?

5.)Where are all of these people are going to go? Do you have places-likely over a hundred miles away because prisons are in remote or hard to access places on purpose. Will they join you-and do you have enough for them? Likely not, they'll have to go... someplace. In this scenario you're making a mass prison break and caches of arms and building an instant army. Armies need food, shelter and warmth like any other mass of people... or will you be operating in cooperation with other forces with their own people inside? Alliances can be tricky but as long as the goal is kept in mind doable.

6.)Who do you have on the inside? It would be of great benefit to contact various leaders and influential inmates and risk getting snitched on and blowing the operation and get their troops up to speed on say, basic woodcraft, marksmanship and rifle team/squad tactics. Yes I know there won't be a rifle range in the joint but they can be told the theory and upon the operation will have the theory to use that Enfield-guided by your men of course. When the prison break occurs they act on the inside as the inside pressure to your outside pressure. More than likely the prison will fall.

7.)Breakout! What's coming? Do you/can you have teams along the various approaches to disable, delay, destroy them? Can you get your prepared inmates armed in time to turn them into an ad hoc military force and greatly improve your odds?

No you won't be making a stand there, the objective is to escape and harness your instantly generated increased combat power to attack whatever secondary objectives come up. You have to before opfor panics and calls in the US Air Force...

El Paso County in Colorado passes resolution nullifying the NDAA. Which, of course, doesn't really nullify anything. But symbolically, it gets the point across.

Onward and upward,
airforce

On an earlier note, my family has made their intentions clear.
They will stay and fight.
We will win, or we will die together.

Modern high security prisons are engineered to some degree to repel a determined assault. A lot of (if not most) regular county jails are extremely high security compared to regular prisons, but personnel issues are what make the difference between one engineered to repel an assault or not. Most can simply "lock down" and wait for the cavalry to arrive and if the assaulting force does not have the means to breach multiple steel and concrete doors quickly, they are not getting in.

Well!! I am not sure of What a Terrorist would be by their Definition..But I know as well as everybody here, they will label us as such, and I think we should not disappoint them!

As I've said and maintain to this very day, we will all Hang separately, if we don"t Hang together....I"am tired of the BullShyte, and the 24/7 Fear..Maybe its time to be Pro-Active..if the gloves are off..what is our Option? I feel we are soon to be tested, I am on the same page as Leo..Bring it on..I'am tired and want to go Back to America! Semper Fi

I've often noticed doors are heavily reinforced, windows with bars, etc... I've also noticed the same attention is often lacking on walls, floors, and roofs.

Here is an individual that should be detained ,immediately!...That would solve a lot of problems.

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hpho...66853_610736852_8723006_1104123553_n.jpg

And this thing can be his roommate:

I'm am sure the the powers in Washington have not been too worried about us. By that they think we have too much to lose to stand.
Well Mr. Washington man. We have been losing things for years and we have been patient, tried to see the good leaders and refrain from battle. because down deep we really love the people of this land and the freedoms we once had.
But you took and took and then took some more. we warned and warned. then yelled stop. But Sir you refused, you got a taste of power and began to believe we would not fight.
You were right for a while many had a lot to lose, homes, careers and family. but you took those too. Now what left for you to take?
Maybe others have something left to lose, but sir I don't you took my freedom once, you took my career once, you took all that I was willing to sacrifice without a fight.
Then one day in December my son was taken, my conscience, my friend, my reason for caution. Now try to take anything else. all have have left is fight come get some Mr. Washington man.
There are many men right now one loss away from my position sir......warning.... You drew first blood....

I think there are a lot of us who have been pushed far enough that there is nothing left but timing. Things are heating up, getting closer for sure.

When TSHTF all I have to say is we'd better not stop until the job is done. Completely done.

Oklahoma State Rep. Charles key (R-Oklahoma City) has introduced HCR 1025 , expressing the belief that the National defense Authorization Act is unconstitutional, and calling for its repeal.

Onward and upward,
airforce