Okla. tea parties envision militia
#151227
04/13/2010 02:52 AM
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Okla. tea parties and lawmakers envision militia
AP
By SEAN MURPHY and TIM TALLEY, Associated Press Writers Sean Murphy And Tim Talley, Associated Press Writers – Mon Apr 12, 7:09 pm ET
OKLAHOMA CITY – Frustrated by recent political setbacks, tea party leaders and some conservative members of the Oklahoma Legislature say they would like to create a new volunteer militia to help defend against what they believe are improper federal infringements on state sovereignty.
Tea party movement leaders say they've discussed the idea with several supportive lawmakers and hope to get legislation next year to recognize a new volunteer force. They say the unit would not resemble militia groups that have been raided for allegedly plotting attacks on law enforcement officers.
"Is it scary? It sure is," said tea party leader Al Gerhart of Oklahoma City, who heads an umbrella group of tea party factions called the Oklahoma Constitutional Alliance. "But when do the states stop rolling over for the federal government?"
Thus far, the discussions have been exploratory. Even the proponents say they don't know how an armed force would be organized nor how a state-based militia could block federal mandates. Critics also asserted that the force could inflame extremism, and that the National Guard already provides for the state's military needs.
"Have they heard of the Oklahoma City bombing?" said Joseph Thai, a constitutional law professor at the University of Oklahoma. The state observes the 15th anniversary of the anti-government attack on Monday. Such actions could "throw fuel in the fire of radicals," he said.
But the militia talks reflect the frustration of some grass roots groups seeking new ways of fighting recent federal initiatives, such as the health reform plan, which requires all citizens to have health insurance. Over the last year, tea party groups across the country have staged rallies and pressured politicians to protest big government and demand reduced public spending.
In strongly conservative states like Oklahoma, some legislators have also discussed further action to fight federal policies, such as state legislation and lawsuits.
State Sen. Randy Brogdon, R-Owasso, a Republican candidate for governor who has appealed for tea party support, said supporters of a state militia have talked to him, and that he believes the citizen unit would be authorized under the Second Amendment to the Constitution.
The founding fathers "were not referring to a turkey shoot or a quail hunt. They really weren't even talking about us having the ability to protect ourselves against each other," Brogdon said. "The Second Amendment deals directly with the right of an individual to keep and bear arms to protect themselves from an overreaching federal government."
Another lawmaker, state Rep. Charles Key, R-Oklahoma City, said he believes there's a good chance of introducing legislation for a state-authorized militia next year.
Tea party leader J.W. Berry of the Tulsa-based OKforTea began soliciting interest in a state militia through his newsletter under the subject "Buy more guns, more bullets."
"It's not a far-right crazy plan or anything like that," Berry said. "This would be done with the full cooperation of the state Legislature."
State militias clearly are constitutionally authorized, but have not been used in recent times, said Glenn Reynolds, a law professor at the University of Tennessee and an expert on the Second Amendment. "Whether someone should get a militia to go toe-to-toe with the federal government ... now, that strikes me as kind of silly," he said.
Some conservative legislators in Oklahoma say talk of a militia, which would be privately recruited, armed and trained, goes too far.
"If the intent is to create a militia for disaster relief, we have the National Guard," said Sen. Steve Russell, R-Oklahoma City, a retired Army lieutenant colonel. "Anything beyond that purpose should be viewed with great concern and caution."
Democratic Gov. Brad Henry's communications director Paul Sund also discounted the militia discussion, saying the National Guard handles state emergencies and security.
Federal authorities say that radical militia groups have not emerged in Oklahoma, unlike many other states, in part because of the legacy of the Oklahoma City bombing. On April 19, 1995, an anti-government conspiracy led by Army veteran Tim McVeigh exploded a truckbomb outside the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building, killing 168 people.
Last month, FBI agents conducted a raid on the Hutaree militia group in southern Michigan and accused members of plotting to kill law enforcement officers.
Doc's Note: Someone needs to send the OK Tea Party a copy of Edwin Veiera's book.
"The time for war has not yet come, but it will come and that soon, and when it does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard." Gen. T.J. Jackson, March 1861
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Re: Okla. tea parties envision militia
#151228
04/13/2010 03:51 AM
04/13/2010 03:51 AM
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Originally posted by ConSigCor:
[b]Doc's Note: Someone needs to send the OK Tea Party a copy of Edwin Veiera's book. [/b] Already have!  The Oklahoma Constitution already already has provisions for a militia. All able-bodied men and women between the ages of 18 and 70 are members. I'm more than a little skeptical about having an "official" militia, but it'll be interesting to see where this goes. Onward and upward, airforce
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Re: Okla. tea parties envision militia
#151229
04/13/2010 07:14 AM
04/13/2010 07:14 AM
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Of course,any time the word 'militia' is mentioned-comes the inevitable mention of the Oklahoma City Bombing,which wasn't perpetrated by a militia.
Now they have the 'hutaree' to remind people how 'evil' and 'right wing' militias are.
Forget the fact that the Second Amendment is an inalienable individual right that citizens have to bear arms and form militias-soon,the 'M' word will be as unspeakable as the 'N' word.
Inalienable Rights?
You have only the rights government gives you-you have the right to pay taxes and choose a government approved health care plan.
Is it time for state sanctioned,volunteer militias to provide a modicum of defense against the Federal government?
Its BEEN time......
"The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases." -Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Okla. tea parties envision militia
#151231
04/13/2010 04:46 PM
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An instance within the memory of some of this house will show us how our militia may be destroyed. Forty years ago, when the resolution of enslaving America was formed in Great Britain, the British Parliment was advised by an artful man, who was governor of Pennsylvania, to disarm the people; that is was the best and most effectual way to enslave them; but that they should not do it openly, but weaken them, and let them sink gradually, by totally disusing and neglecting the militia. -- George Mason at the Virginia Ratification Convention, June 14, 1788
"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should
have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence
from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own
government." -- George Washington
"A standing army we shall have, also, to execute the execrable commands of tyranny; and how are you to punish them? Will you order them to be punished? Who shall obey these orders? Will your mace-bearer be a match for a disciplined regiment? In what situation are we to be? The clause before you gives a power of direct taxation, unbounded and unlimited, an exclusive power of legislation, in all cases whatsoever, for ten miles square, and over all places purchased for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, etc. What resistance could be made? The attempt would be madness. You will find all the strength of this country in the hands of your enemies; their garrisons will naturally be the strongest places in the country. Your militia is given up to Congress, also, in another part of this plan; they will therefore act as they think proper; all power will be in their own possession. You can not force them to receive their punishment: of what service would militia be to you, when, most probably, you will not have a single musket in the State? For, us arms are to be provided by Congress, they may or may not furnish them." Patrick Henry, Shall Liberty or Empire be Sought?, from a June 5, 1788 speech in the Virginia Convention, called to ratify the Constitution of the United States
PISTIS en XPICT faith in Christ
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Re: Okla. tea parties envision militia
#151232
04/13/2010 09:03 PM
04/13/2010 09:03 PM
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That's all good in concept, but we also have to face the fact that America's original consitutional militias had eventually dissolved by the early 20th century from simple lack of interest.
Even the modern National guard, which offers, pay, benefits, government funded equipment and training that is standardized with the regular military has issues with recruiting, retention, and quality of training resources. Now think of how that really ads up for those who would put all of those costs on individual volunteers.
That's where you end up with this "division" between the American Resistance Movement types and the "Boyscouts in cammies" types.
I think a real focus needs to remain on the maintenance of real civil rights organizations with the means to enforce the protection of civil rights through force if necessary. The problem with existing so called "civil rights" organizations right now is that so many of them are political agenda based, and quite frequently deeply connected with the police state apparatus.
Life liberty, and the pursuit of those who threaten them.
Trump: not the president America needs, but the president America deserves.
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Re: Okla. tea parties envision militia
#151233
04/14/2010 12:34 AM
04/14/2010 12:34 AM
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Transcript of Chris Matthews interv...lahoma Constitutional Alliance on MSNBC. If you're not one of the three people who still watch MSNBC, you missed this last night. MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. Tea Partiers out there are now pushing for the creation of a state militia in, of all places, Oklahoma. They say a new volunteer militia would help defend against what they see as federal infringements on state sovereignty. This Monday marks, by the way, the 15th anniversary of the Oklahoma City bombing, which was done at the hands of Timothy McVeigh.
Al Gerhart heads a group of Tea Party factions collectively known as the Oklahoma Constitutional Alliance. Al, thank you for coming on HARDBALL. I want to give you a thought -- all your thoughts here. What do you think would be the purpose of a militia, in terms of restricting a legitimate debate, of course, what should be the role of the federal government. We've been arguing about it for about 250 years. What would be the role of an armed militia, though?
AL GERHART, TEA PARTY LEADER: Well, the militia they were speaking about was one that was controlled by the state, by the governor. So it's not what most people consider militia. It's more of a state defense force. There are a total of 22 states that have defense forces already. Oklahoma happens to be the only one that has an inactive force.
The purpose would be to back up the National Guard. When our National Guard is deployed in Iraq or Afghanistan, or they don't have the equipment here, that's when the state guard could step in.
MATTHEWS: What role would it play vis-a-vis our own government?
GERHART: Our own government, on a theoretical level? I guess if a state guard ever thought they could stand up to the federal government, they would probably get squashed.
MATTHEWS: So what would be -- what would be symbolic? I mean, is this a symbolic thing? I wonder what -- luckily, we haven't had wars since the Civil War that I can remember, but -- in this country between the government and the states. But when can you imagine the states wanting to go to war with the federal government using armed force?
GERHART: I wouldn't imagine they ever would. What our founding fathers envisioned -- they never envisioned having a standing army. The Second Amendment was not about your right to shoot a burglar, protect your family. The Second Amendment was the right of the states to have a militia. What the founding fathers envisioned was all these state militias that basically kept the federal government in check just by their very existence.
MATTHEWS: Where do you get that history? Where is that history coming from? I guess I don't know that history.
GERHART: Go back to school then, because the history is there.
MATTHEWS: Tell me about the militias as an instrument to restrict how the Supreme Court rules on -- the Supreme Court rules in this country about what the federal government is allowed to do. What is a militia going to do with a Supreme Court, challenge the Supreme Court?
GERHART: No, sir. Did you realize the militia has been authorized by the Supreme Court. There's been a case on it already.
MATTHEWS: Sure. We're talking about the use of the -- let's not get into the lawyers game of shifting the marbles around here. Are militias, as you understand them, a proper tool to stand up to a federal decision approved by the Supreme Court? Do you believe a militia in Oklahoma should ever be used to fight the federal government? Is that your view?
GERHART: Oh, no, it should never be used to fight the federal government. That would be insanity. That's not the point. The point is if you have 30 or 40 states that have state militias, that would never happen to start with. The government will respect us.
MATTHEWS: Why not? Explain how that would work.
GERHART: Well, Chris, if you have 30 or 40 state militias that cannot be controlled by the federal government, that alone will keep the federal government from ever trying to overstep its bounds. If it ever decided to, the state militias couldn't do anything about it. That's real simple.
MATTHEWS: When we had a fight, the federal government had a fight in Little Rock to integrate the high school down there, they brought in federal troops. They nationalized the National Guard down there and put it at the service of the federal government. Why wouldn't the militia of any state be nationalized to put it to the service of the federal government, and used to serve the needs of the federal government? What would stop that from happening in your case in Oklahoma?
GERHART: Technically, they can't. What they can do and what they would do is draft the people in the State Guard, which is perfectly legitimate. But they cannot control the state militia by the state Constitution. In Oklahoma, we have three state militias. Every man in Oklahoma between the ages of 17 and 70 is a member of the state militia. That is our law.
Most states have similar laws. As far as your state guard, they disbanded it after the April 19th bombing, out of respect for our citizens, and it was probably a good decision for them to do so.
MATTHEWS: Name an issue that you can imagine in which a state militia in Oklahoma, based Oklahoma, would act to prevent the federal government from doing anything on health care, on education, on any issue. Where would he get a role in standing up or bluffing the federal government or using its strength just by being there to stop the federal government from doing something?
GERHART: Chris, where are you getting all of this? No one has ever mentioned that. As far as our group, we don't even have a position on whether or not the state militia is a good idea or bad idea.
MATTHEWS: OK.
GERHART: I'm here to basically represent what the other people are talking about. I told your producer we have no position on in. We know the people who do have a position on it. Their position is if it's under our Constitution, it's legal. Why not go ahead and re-enact it, just like having another highway department or something? That's all it is.
MATTHEWS: What did you mean when you said it's scary, it sure is, when you talked about having a militia down there in Oklahoma?
GERHART: Gee, Chris, I think everybody understands that if we ever got to the point where state militias felt they had to stand up against the federal government that would be a scary situation. That's one I don't want to live through and I don't want to see my kids living through that.
MATTHEWS: I can't follow you, sir. You're going on a couple points here. You're saying that a militia would play a constitutional role in standing up for the sovereignty of your state, but it would never actually be active in doing so. I don't get the point.
GERHART: Our founding fathers considered the militias crucial. If you read the Second Amendment, it's all about that. It's all about the need for a well-regulated militia. Again, we're not supposed to have a standing army. The founding fathers wanted that to be a counter-point.
But times have changed. Now we have a huge standing army. It's just symbolic. That's all it is.
(CROSS TALK)
MATTHEWS: You seem like you're suggesting there's a legitimate need, even if it isn't put into practice, a legitimate need to stand up to federal authority. You believe there is?
GERHART: I don't believe there is a legitimate need to do that. But there is a legitimate need to have a state guard, or else 22 of the states wouldn't have it, Chris.
MATTHEWS: Thank you for coming. I appreciate it. We're trying to get to the truth here. Thank you, Al Gerhart, from Oklahoma. Onward and upward, airforce
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Re: Okla. tea parties envision militia
#151234
04/14/2010 01:59 AM
04/14/2010 01:59 AM
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Wimped out.
Didn't even make a single point that helped people understand the Constitutional purpose of militia.
And he's with the OK Constitutional Alliance ?
They must have fed him to the lawyers before he got on air.
----------------------------------
"Take heed: watch and pray, for ye know not when the time is." -- Mark 13:33.
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Re: Okla. tea parties envision militia
#151236
04/14/2010 04:35 AM
04/14/2010 04:35 AM
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Fal is right. Either Gerhart has no real understanding of the true purpose of the constitutional militia or he is completely unable or unwilling to make the point clear.
"The time for war has not yet come, but it will come and that soon, and when it does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard." Gen. T.J. Jackson, March 1861
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Re: Okla. tea parties envision militia
#151237
04/14/2010 04:36 AM
04/14/2010 04:36 AM
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Tea Partiers, some seeking to create militia, to clash with anarchists and federal provocateurs?
By ANDREW W. GRIFFIN
Oklahoma Watchdog, editor
Posted: April 13, 2010
andrew@oklahomawatchdog.org
OKLAHOMA CITY — With Tea Party activists gearing up for major rallies in towns and cities across the nation this Wednesday April 14 and Thursday April 15 – Tax Day – the Associated Press featured a story this week headlined “Oklahoma Tea Parties and lawmakers envision militia.”
Interviewed was Al Gerhart, with the Sooner Tea Party, who said that he and other fiscally conservative Tea Party activists are fed up with increasing federal tyranny, said a state-sanctioned militia could be formed within the next year to protect Oklahoma citizens.
“Is it scary? It sure is,” Gerhart told AP. “But when do the states stop rolling over for the federal government?”
The AP story accurately notes that “militia talks” are the result of frustrated Oklahoma activists who are “seeking new ways of fighting recent federal initiatives” like the unconstitutional ObamaCare law that Oklahoma Attorney General Drew Edmondson, a Democrat candidate for governor this year, has refused to fight.
Joseph Thai, a constitutional law professor at OU was interviewed and rhetorically asked, “Have they heard of the Oklahoma City bombing?” It’s not clear how concerned citizens forming a state-sanctioned militia would lead to a bombing of a federal building. According to researchers and witnesses interviewed by Oklahoma Watchdog in the past year, that horrible tragedy, sadly, has the fingerprints of the federal government all over it. More on that in coming reports.
The militia, Mr. Thai, is constitutional, experts note, although it is not clear how a constitutional law professor does not know that.
And Gerhart and his fellow Tea Partiers have supporters from Oklahoma legislators like State Sen. Randy Brogdon (R-Owasso) who is running for governor and State Rep. Charles Key an Oklahoma City Republican who has pushed for the state to take the 10th amendment to the U.S. Constitution far more seriously.
J.W. Berry, with OKforTea, told AP that while he encourages citizens to buy more guns and bullets, forming a state militia to protect against federal tyranny is “(N)ot a far-right crazy plan or anything like that. This would be done with the full cooperation of the state Legislature.”
And while Brogdon and Key are two liberty-minded legislators, State Sen. Steve Russell, also an Oklahoma City Republican and retired Army lieutenant colonel is concerned, telling AP that a Tea Party militia should “be viewed with great concern and caution.”
In light of the Hutaree militia raids in the Upper Midwest last month, Wednesday and Thursday’s Tea Party activities and the 15th anniversary of the Oklahoma City Bombing coming up next Monday, April 19, the media and federal government are ramping up concerns about violence and hate as connected to Tea Parties and militia supporters.
Oklahoma Watchdog has been watching these developments closely and is looking into the shadowy anarchist “Infoshop” group. Reports earlier this month have noted that the Infoshop anarchists are looking to disrupt the Tea Parties and may be linked to undercover federal operations looking to frame Tea Partiers.
Check out CrashTheTeaParty.org for more on this. Many media outlets are reporting on this website, with some saying it is just a bunch of hype. “This is a left-wing conspiracy,” is the way radio talk show host and Fox News Channel figure Sean Hannity put it on his radio show Tuesday afternoon. “This is a coordinated effort.” Hannity noted that the Tea Partiers, according to left-wing sources, are allegedly trying to “incite the public.”
Here in Oklahoma City the Infoshop anarchists are known for operating the Scissortail Social Space, located at 3012 N. Walker, and is known for its lending library and hang out for local hippies and collectivists. While they are known to operate in the “spirit of mutual-aid and co-operation,” according to their website, their fellow Infoshoppers, as noted last week in a post out of Olympia, Washington at Infoshop News, report that they are marching against police violence and that cops “continue their wretched conquest of the earth and its inhabitants.” In the march “Black bloc is encouraged.” The reference to “Black bloc” is a protest march involving anarchists dressed in black clothing – ski masks, helmets and such – and basically wreak havoc in the community. This was thoroughly covered during the 1999 Seattle WTO protests where Black bloc anarchists were coddled by cops and peaceful marchers were rounded up and locked up. And at the G20 summit in Pittsburgh last summer, cops were caught disguised as anarchists.
While the Oklahoma City Infoshop/Scissortail group has not proven to be violent or provocative, in light of previous Infoshop calls to infiltrate the Tea Party and cause trouble is duly noted here at Oklahoma Watchdog.
Copyright 2010 Oklahoma Watchdog
"The time for war has not yet come, but it will come and that soon, and when it does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard." Gen. T.J. Jackson, March 1861
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Re: Okla. tea parties envision militia
#151238
04/14/2010 05:27 AM
04/14/2010 05:27 AM
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The truth is, I just don't expect anyone to seriously push for this, with the possible exception of Charles Key. (He's the one I gave the book to, by the way.) Randy Brogdon is running for governor, and if he wants to win, he's going to need a lot of votes from Oklahoma City--which is considerably more blue than Tulsa, and where the memories of the tragic Murrah bombing is still fresh. He's going to stay pretty noncommittal on this.
For the record, the TEA Parties here in Oklahoma are not as unified as they are in some other areas. Just here in Tulsa, there will be two separate TEA Parties on Tax Day. It would certainly be more effective if they spoke with one voice, but personalities, egos, and two competing local radio stations, will pretty much keep them apart.
I know Al Gerhart. I don't agree with him on everything (I'm a free market anarchist, after all), but I like him. He took the lead on the Tenth Amendment Resolution before it was fashionable to do so, and he's been hounding both the current governor and the attorney general for not joining the legal fight against ObamaCare. He's one of the good guys.
Onward and upward,
airforce
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Re: Okla. tea parties envision militia
#151240
04/16/2010 07:56 AM
04/16/2010 07:56 AM
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Pericles
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Originally posted by Kimber_45:
at least its a step, gotta start somewhere. This. If you look at the Texas State Guard by comparison,it is completely unarmed except for a "quick reaction force" that apparantly have pistols.
"I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson www.dallascitytroop.org
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Re: Okla. tea parties envision militia
#151243
05/04/2010 11:46 AM
05/04/2010 11:46 AM
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Originally posted by Pericles: Originally posted by Kimber_45:
[b] at least its a step, gotta start somewhere. Make 'em MACHINE PISTOLS like the venerable MP5, MP40 and MAC11!!
Grass fed Beef..it's what's fer supper July 4th.
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Re: Okla. tea parties envision militia
#151244
05/04/2010 06:30 PM
05/04/2010 06:30 PM
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Tuscarora
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The National Guard does not fill the state militia role! Why do I keep hearing this? Yes they react to emergencies in their respective states, and the state gov can call them up but they answer to the FEDERAL government. Why does it say on activation orders for overseas duty that the president is activating them?
National guard is a federal entity
"The proper function of man is to live, not to exist. I shall not waste my days in trying to prolong them. I shall use my time." -Jack London
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Re: Okla. tea parties envision militia
#151245
05/05/2010 02:58 AM
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Originally posted by Tuscarora:
The National Guard does not fill the state militia role! Why do I keep hearing this? Yes they react to emergencies in their respective states, and the state gov can call them up but they answer to the FEDERAL government. Why does it say on activation orders for overseas duty that the president is activating them?
National guard is a federal entity Read the name of the organization: Oklahoma NATIONAL Guard. Oklahoma STATE Guard would not be required to answer to the president. It used to be, and still might be that any institution that was answerable? to the feds were required to have the word NATIONAL in their official name. Look at all of the something something NATIONAL Banks.
Rudy out
"Once the pin is pulled, Mr. Handgrenade is no longer our friend."
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Re: Okla. tea parties envision militia
#151246
05/06/2010 08:11 PM
05/06/2010 08:11 PM
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Tuscarora
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Slightly off subject but good point on the banks.
"The proper function of man is to live, not to exist. I shall not waste my days in trying to prolong them. I shall use my time." -Jack London
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