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Strategic Relocation: #167798
08/17/2018 11:59 AM
08/17/2018 11:59 AM
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Strategic Relocation: Are You Missing Out?

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by Kit Perez | Aug 14, 2018

The concept of strategic relocation is not new, but it’s recently become more popular, as more and more liberty-loving folks get tired of being crammed into crowded public transportation or spending hours on the road in the daily snail-pace commute. For many, the thought of leaving everything can be a bit terrifying, and if you have a family who doesn’t want to leave, you might be thinking that your Big Move is more of a pipe dream than a real possibility, even though you see the death grip on your everyday freedoms tightening by the day. Here’s the truth: it can be done. And yes, you can be amazingly happy in a new location that is more conducive to the type of life you want to live.

Just like changing your physical condition requires time, discipline, and effort, so does changing your permanent residence. Add to that a lot of planning, and you’ll see yet another reason why a lot of people don’t do it. Before we get into how to effectively and efficiently plan such a move, however, let’s look at why you might choose that path — or at least, why you’re probably interested in the idea. Over the next few days we’ll go through the process of aligning your thought process, getting down to brass tacks, and even what you should be doing when you get to your new location.

Why Move?

Maybe you live in a high-crime neighborhood. Contrary to what society will tell you these days, moving because you don’t want to deal with crime, homeless camps, drug addicts, or other social problems and vices does not make you a racist. If you want a safer environment for your family, then moving might be your best bet. When I first purchased my home in a quiet lake community north of Seattle, it was a great environment for my kid to grow up, with lots of opportunities. A few short years later, within a five block radius, there was a convicted rapist, a chop shop, a meth house, two shootings, and a hotbed of criminal activity on the next corner. That’s not counting the commute, which more than doubled in time due to exploding population. It was time to go, and I don’t regret making that move one bit. It was hard — and it continues to be. For us, it’s worth it, and we would never even consider leaving our little farm.

There is a long list of reasons why moving out of the city is an excellent choice; if you’re already considering it, then you’ve probably already thought of at least some of these:

Crowds
Crime
Traffic/Long commutes
Nosy neighbors
Inability to become truly sustainable
Lack of room for storing preps or other necessities
Higher prices and cost of living
Draconian HOAs and suburban “beautification” organizations
Gun laws
Overregulation, ordinances, taxes, levies, and all the related idiocy
Wanting to get your kids out of public schools
Lack of like-minded attitudes or political/religious ideals

Another thing you might be dealing with in your area is the locale’s natural disaster type. Everything is a trade, and while preparing for natural disaster is somewhat the same regardless of where you live, each area has its own specific challenges that you might not be okay with.

If you live in an urban or even suburban area, you might also find that you’re having a hard time finding people who believe as you do, whether that be your worldview, politics, or religious belief. Like it or not, harassment is a very real thing—and not in the ways the media would have you believe. Being liberty-minded, religious, or even just the wrong color in certain areas can get you in big trouble—and that goes for anyone. Regardless of what race you are, there are places you aren’t welcome.

The reasons to move are many, and the bottom line is that you don’t need to justify those reasons to anyone. What matters is what’s best for you and your family, and if that means pulling stakes, then so be it. If you’re set on moving, let’s talk about how to make it happen.

Choosing a Location

Once you’ve outlined your reasons for moving (thereby outlining what you’d need in a new location), you’ll need to figure out where to go. Do you just move to a different neighborhood? Out of the city into a nearby suburb? Do you stay in the same state but move to a rural locale? Or do you go all out and move to a different part of the country?

A lot of this will depend on what your reasons for moving are. If state gun laws are an issue for you, for instance, then you’ll probably need to move out of state. If you just want to be able to see your kids go to a less violent or better school, you may be able to get away with just moving to a different neighborhood. If you’ve ever wanted to try your hand at homesteading, you’ll be looking at states where that’s being done successfully.

If you use social media, you can look at groups that are local to the area you’re interested in moving to, to get a feel for the culture. Read their local paper, maybe even pull up the radio frequencies for their local police and fire and listen to the type of calls they’re dealing with on a daily basis. Are they getting a lot of overdoses? Shootings? What area of the town or county are the calls coming from? Are they places you can avoid? Is the crime location-based (such as a specific block or business) or is it widespread all over the county? If you notice over the course of a few weeks of paying attention that a specific street gets a lot of calls, or maybe the cops get called to a certain bar for fights, you can avoid that problem by simply not going to that location.

Look up the laws in your proposed new locale and see what’s considered legal and what’s not. You may very well choose to ignore certain laws in your quest for more freedom, but you should at least be able to make an informed decision about what you’re choosing, and what the potential consequences are so you can mitigate any potential fallout.

Check the county zoning laws and building permit requirements, too. One person I know found the perfect off-grid home—only to find that it was sitting just on the wrong side of the county line, in a location where the county wanted permits for everything and lots of taxes and fees. They chose to pass on that house and went to a county where there are no building permits, and no one cares what they do on their land.

Before choosing a location, you can also pull up all manner of data on everything from average income and education level to demographics, home prices, economic growth, and anything else you’d like to know. It all depends on what kinds of information you seek, and whether you’re willing to do the research. You’re never going to find the perfect place; you can, however, find something that fits the non-negotiables. Check out the local weather too, and keep in mind what will be expected in that area. Are you choosing a place with hard winters? Super-hot summers? Higher altitude? Before you throw out the idea of living in a place with rough winter, for instance, keep in mind that there are positives to everything. Snow runoff, for instance, can help you water your garden months later during a drought if you’ve thought ahead in terms of collection. And after the busyness of spring and summer, you’ll look forward to winter, when you have a freezer full of meat, shelves and root cellar packed with food, enough firewood to keep the house warm, and lots of time to work on indoor projects or study new skills in preparation for spring thaw.

One more thing—be aware of any tourist attractions, natural wonders, or other curiosities in your area. They draw crowds and everything that goes with them. You might have your heart set on living in the mountains of Wyoming—only to later realize that you moved too close to Yellowstone National Park and now have tens of thousands of people clogging your local area for half the year.

Taking the Next Step

Once you’ve decided on a location (or at least narrowed it down to 2), it’s time to talk funding. Look at average rents/mortgage payment amounts. You may need to rent a smaller place until you can buy. You may want a bit of land to raise animals. You may choose to live remotely or in a small town near a larger area. If your ultimate goal is to get as off-grid as possible, understand that you’re not going to want to go directly from an urban or suburban environment directly to a place where you have no electricity and have to haul water. You and your family will get frustrated very fast, and you’ll be tempted to move back. Start small; rent a place with a well and power.

Above all, be realistic about how it’ll be. The first year is really, really hard. The second year is a bit easier but it’s still difficult. Don’t be tempted to show up and assume you’ll be able to be fully sustainable within a year. You’ll learn some hard lessons; those lessons, however, will not only make you stronger, but you’ll find that you’re able to adapt better for the next situation. You’ll learn to use what you have instead of running to the store for everything. Depending on where you end up, you may find that certain times of the year require you to prepare, or forego certain activities in favor of making your life easier later. You’ll learn that at least part of each season is spent preparing for the next one, or getting done various tasks that need doing. There’s a routine to it, however, and over time you’ll also find that you are emotionally attached and invested in your homestead. It’s something you’ve worked on and sweated over, and it helps you survive. If you can find your spot in a state or area that is also more liberty-minded than where you are, you’re doubly blessed.

If you’ve read this far and aren’t interested in taking the leap of faith, that’s fine too — there are those who believe that freedom can be found anywhere. Ultimately, it’s your choice, and you don’t have to defend that to anyone either. For those who can smell the fresh air and imagine a different life for yourself and your family, however, stay tuned. Tomorrow we’ll talk about where you’ll find the money to make it happen.


"The time for war has not yet come, but it will come and that soon, and when it does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard." Gen. T.J. Jackson, March 1861
Re: Strategic Relocation: [Re: ConSigCor] #167799
08/17/2018 12:12 PM
08/17/2018 12:12 PM
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Strategic Relocation: Planning the Move

Posted by Kit Perez | Aug 15, 2018

Yesterday we looked at the idea of relocating to a different location, and whether that’s something you’ve already been thinking about or are just starting to wake up to, there are a lot of good reasons to do so. Once you’ve decided to take the plunge and move, there’s the (not so) little matter of funding. Moving is expensive, but there are ways to fund your quest if you’re willing to put work in and get creative.

Retirement Accounts and Savings


One way to fund your move is by cashing in your 401(k) or other retirement accounts. While many would gasp at such a notion, let’s parse it out a moment. It wasn’t until the last 100 years that the concept of “retiring” was even a thing. People worked until they couldn’t, and in most cases their families took care of them in their twilight years. If they couldn’t farm or engage in manual labor anymore, they did other things, such as helping raise the children or doing smaller tasks within the family structure. The idea that at some point you stop working entirely and live off of Social Security or retirement accounts is a fairly new idea, comparatively speaking.

If your goal with retirement was to buy a nice RV and travel the countryside, move to Florida or Arizona, and generally enjoy not working, then getting rid of your retirement funds is probably a bad idea. If, however, you’re chasing the freedom of sustainability and a greater liberty in your own life, or if you believe that you NEED to get out of the location you’re in, then it’s an option. Liberty is a harder existence, to be sure, full of hard work and effort. You’ll simply need to ask yourself what you’re willing to do in order to make it all happen.

I’m not advising that you willy-nilly cash everything in and go on a spending spree for preparedness. There is, however, an argument for using at least some of the funds to get started in your new place. Keep in mind, however, that the more complete and realistic your plan is, the better this works. If you have enough in your retirement to also pay off any outstanding credit card debt, student loans, or auto loans, pay those off FIRST, before your move. In addition, if you do decide to cash some funds in, you’ll need to figure out any penalties and/or taxes you’ll need to pay for next year and set that aside right off the top.

Saving Up

If you can’t bring yourself to cash in retirement accounts, then you may need to simply start budgeting for it. Forego your family vacation and put the money toward your planned move. Start making your coffee at home and pass on the daily latte. Even if you’re getting only one $4 coffee per day, and only on weekdays, you’re spending almost $1000 a year. In some rural locations, that’s rent on a piece of property, or several months of groceries. That’s more than a quarter side of beef, which translates to a few months of meat for your family.

Go through your bank accounts, add up all of your subscriptions and auto-debits, and then take a hard look at them. How much of it do you really need? You might be surprised to see that between the cable TV, the streaming services, the Candy Crush, and other “nickel and dime” stuff, you could be paying out $200 a month that could be going toward your move.

Cutting back on certain conveniences you may be used to, such as dining out, pizza delivery, or your various shopping habits will not only save you money and get you to your goal quicker, but they’ll also be good practice for your new location, which may not have these things. When I made the move from the greater Seattle area to rural Montana, I ended up giving up a lot of things I was used to—pizza delivery was a big one. It also changed how I cook and shop for groceries. Instead of deciding what I wanted for dinner and then making a trip to the store for anything I was missing, I was forced to ask, “What can I make with what we have?” As a result, however, we learned to plan our meals, shop local with a plan in mind, and spend more wisely—and that means more money in our pocket and better quality food.

Selling Nonessentials

Another option is selling the stuff you don’t need. Have a garage sale, put it up on Craigslist, get rid of it. You have more than you need—that’s a guarantee. If you’ve been prepping, obviously keep that stuff, but your TV, video game consoles, extra clothes, your collection of fiction books that don’t teach you anything, and all of the assorted junk you have can all go. Not only will you get money to put towards your move, but you’ll have less stuff TO move later.

Borrowing

If you absolutely cannot get enough money to move, even after all of the things above, you could look into borrowing. It’s not ideal; in fact, it’s a horrible idea in almost all cases. Some families, however, find themselves under a time constraint. Maybe their child is involved with destructive people or activities and they need to get their kids out. Maybe they’ve decided that they want to be moved in time for the next school year. Maybe they want to get in on some lucrative seasonal employment in the new location. Whatever the reason, if you find yourself in need of moving sooner than you can afford, and you have literally no other option, you could borrow or use credit.

Finding Work

If you have a specific career, it may or may not translate well to a more rural location. If you have a corporate job that doesn’t really have a rural equivalent, for instance, you might have to either make sure that you’re within commuting distance of someplace that has your particular function—or get creative.

Some skills can find work anywhere. Bartenders, auto mechanics, secretaries and assistants can usually find some kind of work. Even if you’ve never done the work before, if you’re willing to learn and are in good physical shape, sometimes you can get work outside of your regular career path and learn on the job. Keep in mind, however, that you’ll almost certainly be making less than you did in the city. If you’re smart, it won’t be that big a deal; you’ll learn to live on less, and generally the cost of living rural is less than in the city.

Don’t be afraid to look far outside the box for work. Many people who live in rural communities work in the small towns nearest them, or even from home. There are thousands of jobs available to telecommuters of all types, and there’s no rule that says you have to only have one job. Many people raise and sell a specific type of farm animal or use their milk to make homemade soaps for sale. You could also write articles or design websites. People with graphic design experience could open up a virtual firm online and work as a contractor. The sky is truly the limit in terms of what you can do to make money if you’re motivated and have skills to offer. Even if you get a “regular” job in your new location, you can always supplement that income with producing or creating things.

As part of your preparation to move, you might even learn a skill or get certified in something you already know how to do, and start your own business doing it. Here are just a few ideas of things that can supplement your income:

Gunsmithing
Writing
Arts and crafts (crochet, needlepoint, knitting, soapmaking)
Raising chickens or other livestock
Painting/building
Detailing cars
Seamstress work

Even having a “business” in which you pick up scrap piles or do other odd jobs can be fairly lucrative if you have a strong work ethic and can get some word of mouth built up. Everything takes time—but if you visit a few farmer’s markets or see a couple Etsy shops (crocheted shawls, for example, go for $100-$200 each, easily), you can get some really interesting ideas.

If you’re looking at a move, then you should also be aware that it comes with a lifestyle change, and that’s hard. Everything worth having is. The real work begins when you get to your new location. There’s a lot more to it than just getting into a new place and figuring out where the grocery store is. That’s what we’ll talk about next.


"The time for war has not yet come, but it will come and that soon, and when it does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard." Gen. T.J. Jackson, March 1861
Re: Strategic Relocation: [Re: ConSigCor] #167800
08/17/2018 12:33 PM
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Strategic Relocation: The New Location

by Kit Perez | Aug 16, 2018

This is part 3 of a short series on relocation, such as to the Redoubt or Appalachia, so you might want to check out the first two parts here and here.

At this point, we’re going to assume you picked a spot, and managed to successfully fund your move and show up in the new place. What now? You might be thinking, “What do you mean? It’s like any other move.” Actually, it’s just the beginning. Now is when the real work starts.

Networking

Getting plugged in is important. By yourself, you’re screwed. You’ll need to build relationships and networks. One person we know started joining local groups on social media even before the move, got to know the local society and culture a bit, and contacted a local “neighbors helping neighbors” group. He told them he was planning to move there, and asked what was available for small-time volunteer work. Not only did he get connected to some solid people who were very well-versed in the area and different resources, but they coordinated a neighbor welcome party for his own arrival. When he pulled up to his new house with his trailers and family, folks were there with hot homemade food and a lot of strong backs to help unload and get them settled.

Take the time to get familiar with who the movers and shakers are in your community, too. Here’s just a small sample of things you should do once you get moved. I’ll go into each of them in a bit more detail below.

Attend a city council meeting. You’ll get a feel for who’s who, and what people care about in your area.
Find a way to volunteer in the community. This could be anything from donating/staffing the local food bank, to joining a volunteer fire department.
Spend one early morning a week in the local diner. Talk to the regulars, be polite, and do a lot of listening. Small town diners are excellent places to meet people and get information. They are not, however, good for any kind of clandestine meetings or activities.
Find out how to get into the bartering community. Rural areas have amazing barter economies, and you can get your hands on some pretty great stuff.

The City Council

No one’s saying you should get involved in local politics (although there’s a solid argument to be made for doing so, if you have enough people to pull it off in multiple positions). But you should know who’s who, and where they stand on various issues. What are people mad about in your area? Who do they look to, to “do something” about those things, and who’s behind those people? If they have money, where’d they get it? What is the big industry in your area? What’s the underground industry?

The Fire Department

Joining your local volunteer FD may be one of the smartest things you can possibly do if you live in a rural area or very small town. Here’s why:

Free and extensive medical training. Chances are very good that you need more of that, unless you’re already in the profession. If you live remotely, this becomes even more critical.
Exposure to situations that require quick thinking and decision making, as well as “bad stuff” that can help you train your mind to be able to function in chaos instead of puking behind the nearest bush when you’re needed.
A(nother) reason to get off your rear end and do PT. Firefighting is hard work.
You learn to be ready to go at a moment’s notice, and have your ducks in a row when you do. By default, you become more mentally prepared for rapid changes in your environment. After enough 0200 calls, you learn how to wake up quickly, get moving, and be able to get out the door instead of wandering around wondering “where did I put my….?” That skill translates to a lot of different things.
If you own property with woods, you’ll learn how to manage that property in ways that will help keep your home safe — and your animals, crops, and other things you’ll eventually invest in.
Access to behind the scenes of disasters and other events that the public doesn’t get. Access and information are key.
You’ll end up meeting people who are getting the same training (or are already very good at it), and you’ll make associates and allies.
All of these skills and traits translate to you having value to a group or community. It’s not enough to “just” be a “gun guy,” or “comms guy,” etc. You need more than one skill.

The Diner

Everywhere in the country — or even in the world — people, at their core, are the same. They get together to eat and chat, and they chat about things that matter to them. Those things should matter to you, too, if you want an understanding of the community you live in (and you do, believe me). Spending some time in the local eatery, whether it be in the early morning when the older farmers are complaining about market prices and weather, or at lunch when the local business people are chatting, you’ll learn all kinds of information. You’ll notice local cultural norms, social cues and even normal dress. You can think this stuff is stupid, but try walking into a tiny diner in Nowhere, Montana dressed like a hipster from Seattle and see how well you’re received. A lot of rural places aren’t interested in newcomers, and don’t trust them. You have a hurdle to get over, and the sooner you can blend in like a native and get tied in for info, the faster that’ll go.

Bartering

If you’re smart, you’ll spend time on places like Craigslist, noticing what kinds of things are available to barter. Check out local flea markets, small town newspapers, and go back to the diner. There is always someone who wants something you have — and has something you need. As you get to know people, you’ll learn what things people are looking for. If you have chickens, for instance, you can trade your eggs for something else. In the spring, you can run a batch of eggs through a fairly cheap incubator and trade chicks for stuff. Even your junk and animal manure is desirable to someone. Keep your eyes and ears open and you’ll start building contacts…and networks of people who have things to trade. Also be creative about what YOU have to trade; it’s not always a tangible object. A weekend spent helping a neighbor with his car repair or house painting can net huge benefits down the road.

Other things you should consider include getting tied in with local ham groups, understanding law enforcement presence/mindset/capability, and talking to your neighbors to learn what the general attitude is in your immediate area is.

Getting Settled


Once you’re moved in and a bit settled, maybe once you know a few folks, you might want to get involved with raising some animals or doing a bit of farming. Don’t think that you can only start such a venture if you have tons of money or your family’s been doing it forever. The truth is, you CAN go from business-attire-wearing corporate jungle to having a fully functional homestead. It takes a bit of time, a LOT of hard work, and some serious planning and scaling, but it can be done. Start small, with 5 chickens and a rooster. Read books. Watch videos online. There is very little about homesteading that cannot be learned about online—and then you go practice. Talk to local folks who are successfully doing what you want to do. How’d they do it?

If you truly want to get out of where you are, don’t be afraid to start planning it. Be realistic, but be excited. Come outside of your comfort zone. I can tell you from experience—once you’re in your new place, you’ll have setbacks. You’ll sometimes question your sanity. You’ll reach for the phone to call for something you want, only to remember that hay and propane are the only things getting delivered out where you live.

This isn’t meant to be the ultimate guide to relocation. It’s simply meant to get your head thinking of some of the special considerations to moving, especially if your reasons for doing so are to find more freedom. While I can certainly vouch for the fact that you CAN pull off a move like this, and you CAN find more freedom in doing so, you might not want to. That’s okay too, if that’s your call. If you do stay, understand the ramifications and potential consequences of doing so.

Taking the leap of faith to move—especially if you go from suburbia or urban settings to a rural one—isn’t for the weak. It’s hard work. There’s a very good chance, however, that when you look out over your property, see your animals and kids healthy and happy, and know what it’s truly like to do for yourself, with a solid network of people you can count on no matter what, you’ll never want anything different.


"The time for war has not yet come, but it will come and that soon, and when it does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard." Gen. T.J. Jackson, March 1861
Re: Strategic Relocation: [Re: ConSigCor] #167815
08/18/2018 04:03 PM
08/18/2018 04:03 PM
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I bought the Joel Skousen book and DVD, "Strategic Relocation" several years ago when it first came out. There's a lot of valuable information in it. Using the nuclear fallout maps and other info in the book, and info I researched, I selected my location. In the areas of networking, meeting people, and identifying like-minded folks up here, I haven't been as successful as I've hoped. I did go to a community meeting about the fires in our area, and was able to network and gain some valuable information, and not just about the fires, but local comms as well.

You can buy all the books you want, and spend thousands of hours watching videos on how to accomplish many of the things you will need to get done to make your strategic relocation successful, but if you think you can do it all alone, then you are setting your self up for failure, or rather frustratingly delayed success. I've made great progress on energy production and I have a really kick ass solar setup, and am currently adding wind as well, because I learned the hard way last winter that solar alone will not cut it in my area. Things are looking up now though that my ability to produce power will be a year round capability, and probably without the need to fire up a generator. There's a lot to consider, like what kind of batteries you are going to use if your climate is really cold in the winter, insulating your battery box, if your cabin is on post and beam and the underside is open air then you'll need to enclose that off and insulate it, etc. Are your water lines exposed or in the insulated floor? Wrapped in foam insulation? Are they PVC? If so, are you replacing them with Pex? If you are building your place from scratch, great! You can avoid a lot of these kinds of pit falls. If you bought a piece of property with a cabin and are inheriting flaws built into it because the previous owners were only planning on using it in the summer, then you have your work cut out for you. For me, I think the most difficult obstacle is keeping the water from freezing in the winter. My water is spring fed, into a cistern, and my place is on a solid rock on a mountain up some steep brutal terrain. Burying the water lines and cistern is not feasible. At best I might be able to hire a heavy equipment operator to come in and use a hydraulic hammer, or hire a company to come in and use dynamite, but it's going to be very costly either way. It needs to be done, but I can't afford it, yet.

[img]https://ibb.co/jwMgLz[/img]

Which leads me to the issue of income while we still have rule of law and a functioning society. There's property taxes, vehicle tabs, vehicle insurance, home owners insurance, and if you live in a climate where growing food year round is not feasible, then you are still going to have some food costs, even if you have chickens, goats, rabbits, hunt, etc., plus the cost of chicken feed, hay, and don't forget your phone bill, internet bill, medical insurance, medications, propane, gas, etc. Do you get a lot of snow? Then you'll need a way to plow it. Do you have a private road? Then you will have to pay to fix it when the road washes out in the spring, (last 2 springs have had costly and devastating affects on my roads. This prevented me from getting materials delivered for many months because the roads have to dry out before the construction company can fix them or their equipment and trucks will sink, go over a cliff, or break.)

My point is under rule of law in a functioning society, you are still going to have bills, and therefore need an income. If you have already made your money, and are retired and getting dividends off of your 401k or IRA, or have a bunch of money and metals saved up, great! If you are on a fixed income, social security, it's going to be rough, but doable to maintain this lifestyle. It's the initial costs of getting setup that will be hard. There's a few old people up where I am who live here year round successfully, and I've been fortunate enough to gain some pearls of wisdom from them on occasion. As for me, I'm still of working age, I made it as far as I could on my own in developing my retreat location, but now my money is gone and I'm going back to work. Since there is no work here, that means I'm going back into the metropolitan rat race human jungle so I can make really good money in the aviation industry where I came from, and use that money to complete the things I could not get done. My experience has not been a failure, but the fact is it's going to take more money and resources in order to make this a successfully functioning year round retreat location. I did not have the support of friends and family in this endeavor. It had a major negative impact. If you try this, and I hope that you do, I pray you have the support of your friends and family and are not going it alone. It's very rewarding when you accomplish something as cool as building a sweet solar array, but it also sucks when you need help with something that takes 2 or more people, and since you don't have help, are now at a standstill. Good luck!


https://mtc.cdn.vine.co/r/videos/BA...sionId=4t5.0tXamTaMhBZwfXljf3ZmZOMXKupj "Honestly, um, there are things more important than your life, and freedom is one of them."
Re: Strategic Relocation: [Re: ConSigCor] #167822
08/18/2018 11:34 PM
08/18/2018 11:34 PM
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Kel,
Can you install a cistern against the house and run the gutters into it? If the cistern was in an enclosed, insulated shed attached to the house it wouldn't take much to heat it enough to keep the water from freezing.


"The time for war has not yet come, but it will come and that soon, and when it does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard." Gen. T.J. Jackson, March 1861
Re: Strategic Relocation: [Re: ConSigCor] #167830
08/19/2018 02:26 PM
08/19/2018 02:26 PM
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N.E. Wa.
Kelldor42 Offline
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Unfortunately no, (It's a big heavy metal tank, at least 100 gal. It's up hill behind my place, so that if my pump goes out, I still have gravity fed water.), but along those same lines I did get a 50 gal. water heater and put it inside right next to my fireplace. It's not going to be used to heat my water, (that will be done by Ecosmart tankless and propane backup), but merely to keep it from freezing. I'm replacing the thermostats with 48v DC ones, and 35F thermostats, from Missouri Wind and Solar. I also installed one in my cistern as well and am hooking up my last solar panel to it PV direct, and am planning on insulating and enclosing it just like you mentioned. These heating elements will take 2 sources of power, so i'm also considering coming off of my battery box to the cistern element as well. I'm in the process of installing a 2000w 48v wind generator on a 40' pole as well, and am considering using the dump load from that to keep the cistern from freezing, but then during the summer I'll just have hot water, lol, so I don't think that will work, and I'm probably going to have to by dump load resisters instead.

Open to suggestions. This is one of the areas where I'm having problems figuring how best to do this. I'm not likely to finish this year now either. Times up, heading back to civilization soon, eek


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Re: Strategic Relocation: [Re: ConSigCor] #167839
08/20/2018 01:49 AM
08/20/2018 01:49 AM
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A few ideas.

I'd try to go with a 500 gallon plastic tank. Having 5 times the capacity it'll take longer to freeze, especially if you insulate and enclose it. I'd insulate the pipe and if possible shovel dirt over top of it. Since you can gravity feed and the tank is spring fed you might be able to let it drip during cold weather. As long as you can keep some water moving it shouldn't freeze as easily.


"The time for war has not yet come, but it will come and that soon, and when it does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard." Gen. T.J. Jackson, March 1861
Re: Strategic Relocation: [Re: ConSigCor] #167840
08/20/2018 08:07 AM
08/20/2018 08:07 AM
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Slipping the surly bonds of ea...
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Slipping the surly bonds of ea...
I have 4 IBC's ganged together in my basement, the house water runs through them

https://images.homedepot-static.com...gcube-rain-barrels-ibc275h-n-64_1000.jpg

The problem with IBC's is that you pretty much have to put them in the basement during construction, though.


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Re: Strategic Relocation: [Re: ConSigCor] #167843
08/20/2018 11:49 AM
08/20/2018 11:49 AM
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N.E. Wa.
Kelldor42 Offline
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I have the pipe insulated, and one of those electrical cord pipe warmer things that goes the full length. Burying in dirt is not feasible yet, but what I may be able to do is concrete it in, or build a concrete form along both sides of the pipe and fill that with dirt maybe. I'm on a rock, and it's very steep in the 30' between my cabin and cistern. Everyone up here says you need to bury 5' deep to keep from freezing. There's no way I could build a form that high and pour that much concrete though. (Getting large amounts of materials or large heavy items up the hill from where I park is a nightmare. I have a winch on a tree hooked to a gorilla cart to get it most of the way, and then I have to carry it the rest.) I'd need a hydraulic hammer on an excavator, or dynamite to get 5' depth. I will probably go the hydraulic hammer route next year because I need to get a driveway put in the goes all the way up to my cabin anyways, and I'm going back to work very soon and will be able to afford it.

I like the idea of going with a larger plastic tank! My water is very clean and pure, just had it tested, but I can taste rust, bleh!! So I filter it with a Berkey, but the downside with Berkeys is they also strip all of the good minerals out. I think I could get a couple of those IBC's up here. Looks like they are 275 gal. I could rig a small pump and make a loop to keep the flow going like you're saying. I have seen a bunch of youtube videos where people take those IBC's and cut them in half for aquaponics to raise fish and grow vegetables. I'd like to do that some day, but Tilapia wouldn't survive the cold, would need to do Trout instead.

Thx for the ideas.

Kel

P.S.: I wish I could show you folks how brutal the terrain is up here. When the F-18 Hornets fly by my cabin I am looking down at the cockpit! LOL!


https://mtc.cdn.vine.co/r/videos/BA...sionId=4t5.0tXamTaMhBZwfXljf3ZmZOMXKupj "Honestly, um, there are things more important than your life, and freedom is one of them."
Re: Strategic Relocation: [Re: ConSigCor] #167854
08/21/2018 01:06 PM
08/21/2018 01:06 PM
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Looks like you're running into some of the same problems Strat and Breacher had at "the Rock". Water and roads were always a problem, especially during the brutally cold winters.

In my area, if you go down 18" you wont have a problem with frozen water lines. Five feet would be a pia even in dirt.

On plastic tanks: You might look into one of the poly tanks specifcally made for water system. Our local Tractor Supply company keeps them in stock. Don't know about your A/O.

You also might look at engineer775's youtube channel. He specializes in off-grid water systems.


"The time for war has not yet come, but it will come and that soon, and when it does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard." Gen. T.J. Jackson, March 1861

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