Where There Is No Mess Hall

Okay,

Most of us like to eat. We go on an FTX and are reasonably sure on the return home, we can stop and pick up some fried chicken and beer. But what would you do if there were no stores, no fast food outlets, no taco stands, no gas station sushi, etc.

In the field, it's crucially important that while, high sugar, high protein foods are available, there must also be a good assortment of staple foods, prepared and brought to the front lines. I really like MH entrees. The granola ration is expensive, but it's about 500 calories of tasty milk, blueberries and granola. You can make your own, and if you have any recepies for DIY entrees, I'd love to hear about them. But when the MH food runs out, we don't want to be eating nothing but potatoes and radishes.

Therefore, I suggest every militia cell, big enough to have a QM is able to designate a certain amount of money, time and effort into developing a food protocol. I would start by buying thermos containers, 2-3 for every man, as well as insulated coolers. These containers can be filled with soup, hot cocoa, tea, coffee, etc and sent to the front along with ammo and fresh men. Insulated coolers can contain cooked meats, hot dishes and even the odd six-pack of Coke. If you make it very easy to send good food to the front, whether it's carried by runners or sent by motor transport, you'll ensure that the guys in the bunkers and trenches won't just eat Snickers bars and jerky. Those two foods tend to be handy, but lead to digestive problems and appetite fatigue.

Then start planning menus. I'd try to plan menus for a month at a time, then at the end of 4 weeks, start back at Day One. That way, if you decide Day 3 will be hot tea, sausages and instant potatoes, you can buy in bulk without having to process most of the foods yourself. Because you're part of a larger cell structure, all members, not just the QM should be a part of this plan. Then another set of menus should be planned, based on expected yields from gardens as well as long term storage foods socked away.

Other ways to avoid meal fatigue? Lots of hard candy. Peppermints are cheap and keep for ages. A few peppermints can make even the most bland oatmeal go down smoother. Also keep lots of spice, salt, sugar and soya sauce available.

Finally, there comes the issue of alcohol. During times of relative ease, men should be allowed to "purchase" (maybe a system could be set up where so many hours worked in the fields or on guard duty) such premiums from the mess as shots of rum or tequila. Otherwise, men will start making their own or trading valuable supplies for it. Every mess kitchen needs to have a supply of alcohol.

Just some thoughts. Feel free to share recipies, tips, etc. I tend to use a lot of BP and MH entrees when I go camping for longer periods of time, but I'd love some input.

CK

While you have a very good idea, I am afraid by the time you got to the front with food and ammo, all of the men there would be a puddle of goo. If anyone thinks we will be fighting against a well trained well supplied force head on is sadly mistaken and should rethink their strategy. Unless we are utilized by American military as say reserves for the state guard or something of that nature. Everything else we engage in will be of a guerrilla type conflict. Stick and move type tactics.

MH is a good food to have. Every trip I make to WalMart, I buy 1 or 2 and put them up. Got a pile of them.

It depends largely on what you call a front line, the Eastern idea of frontline & the Western ideas are somewhat different. In the West the frontline is the theater of conflict. In the East it is wherever the enemy is located. The East has made use of mobile warfare far longer then the west.

So if your idea of the frontline is the theater of combat; i.e. on the battlefield then most of your guys you're funnelling food to is pretty much screwed against any professional army. Either way, MH is good cache foods and "safe house" storage foods.

Again, this is a discussion of why the militia needs to have control of logistics... fighting (today especially) is a lot more than just picking up a rifle and shooting.

Even in the Revolutionary war, it was a lot more than that. The battle at Concord wasn't really about confiscating a couple of cannon, it was about confiscating the powder and shot that were very, very difficult to acquire, and indeed may not have been replaceable. The US won because Cornwallis ran out of supplies, time and land simultaneously, not because the revolutionaries were better fighters (objectively, they weren't).

These days, the US military wins because the fighters are objectively better, AND because the logistics system that supports them is the finest in the world. Making sure that the bullets, beans, batteries and band-aids are where they need to be occupies the majority of the effort of the military.

Food is a big part of that. Asking each militia member to fight with his own rations on his back is unreasonable: Aside from people having various abilities to acquire food, having to carry it to the battle is a waste of energy. Likewise, having to take an hour or two out to cook, eat and clean up is wasteful of time and other resources. Thats why the military has specialists that do nothing but provide more or less wholesome, nutritious, and occasionally even tasty food to the troops.

Since not everyone is a fighter (or can be) having a group of people who take care of this is a good idea. And, it's easy to practice without attracting attention - church or youth group activities, helping out in charitable food pantries, even in inner-city missions all provides a good idea about how to cook for large groups.

Food is important, its one of the big three for survival. I am just saying what Doc says is right. By having a plan and doing your homework, finding safe places to cache, setting up safe house's ect. will help you be successful. But your tactics should not include frontal assault of say a Bradley or a well trained and supplied infantry unit. Doing a good job with Recon and hitting the target at the moment its most vulnerable will get you supplied and keep you alive.

Want to piss off an organized armed force? Attack their comfort logistics...food, water, laundry, latrines. Make them sweat - keep them locked up in armored vehicles. Harassing fire at night to keep them up at night, etc.

Keep them tired, thirsty and hungry (as much as possible), stinky and they'll get demoralized pretty quickly. Then they make mistakes.

Plus, the tail is usually not well defended...

Hell yeah, that's what I'm talking about.

Well I'm with Fight-ER-Doc, an army marchs on its stomach. In our modern society (and we aren't just valnerable to this in industrial society is) you just need to cut power, fuel & transportation and you win the war.

Without fuel; nothing gets transportted from supply to demand and that includes power...
Without power; all the advanced technology is as good as a rock, even with back up generators it still requires fuel to run & a means to get that fuel there...
Destory the inferstructure of roads & bridges; no fuel can get in and not one is travelling except on foot. Even planes need fuel...

Thats why the Asians have a beat in a fight; we train for battle drills, they train for battle strategy. Our battle drills are limited to contact between two combatant forces and their battle drills are teach principles of psychological warfare as well. They aren't better just better trained in a few aspects, we are better trained in others. Point is learn to adapt and use other people's tactics...

If an army marchs on its stomach, why are chow halls left so undefended?

Asher,

I respect the Asiatic method of winning a battle. But imagine something, if your foot soldiers are hungry, they're going to have (A) headaches, (B) rumbling stomachs and (C) distraction from the task at hand. Remember "All Quiet on the Eastern Front"? (not a perfect example, but the soldiers are reduced for scavenging for ham and chocolate, not fighting the enemy).

There needs to be a recognition that not everybody involved in the struggle will be interested or even ethically motivated to fight. I wouldn't ask my mother to grab an SKS and join me in a foxhole. But I wouldn't hesitate to, if the tactical situation was correct, to run food up to the FOB (forward operations base) and distribute it to front-line fighters.

I realize guerilla warfare entails a problem where you need to be sufficient to operate without massive public support. But a guerilla can't operate with a Coleman stove on his back. A guerilla can't operate with fifteen pounds of rice. A guerilla combat cell can't effectively hunt partridges and still be a fighting force, first.

Therefore, we need to designate some people to be providers of support services. We may not think much of the retired Vietnam vet who's got a limp. We may not dream of asking him to shoulder a Mauser and fight for his life. But he can still run a kitchen and arrange logistics for our fighting men.

The average guerilla needs this kind of support. We can't imagine that we'll live on indefinitely supported public willpower.

CK

And Asher,

Chow halls are left undefended, because they're empty. By the time they've overrun your bivouac, your defensive perimeter has collapsed. At that point, you should disperse and strike back at a time and place of your choosing. Not by defending a static location which has no tactical significance.

CK

Well, CK let me point something out to you. Mao got his men food & ammo from raiding the enemy also the VC were a bit smarter & the social structure of their country afforded such to them in that they had farms; where VCs worked the land & loaded food into tunnels to feed to soldiers close to the American front.

Now what I'm talking about & you missed it completely was the improtance of the supply chain.

I'll use a hypothetical to make my point;
Lets say Mexico invades the US (yeah I know) and a militia unit using guerrilla tactics sneaks into a Mexican field base & raids undefended Chow Hall poisons the food which remains & beats feet. The psychological effect is devistating, I don't need to anything but eat the Mexican Army's borritos to win the battle.

You see my point now; we transport food to combat forces & instead need to consider producing food in the field. Thats a weakness thats crippling, I've even spoke with Russian soldiers when I was in the service who talked about larger Russian & even Chinese military bases having internal farms, livestock and butchers. These were all soldiers but if the base was cut off from external supply it a self-contained redundancy.

Just saying the same thing deferently...

When my grandfather was a Boy Soldier in the early part of WWII, he and another man were tasked with defending a water tower. A local German sympathizer climbed a ladder to the water tower, planning to dump arsenic into the water.

My grandfather raised his Enfield as did his companion. His companion fired first, and the dead German fell to the ground.

True story and I wish he was still around to tell it. But really, unless it was a suicide mission, how would you expect to penetrate to a "Mexican" messhall. My thoughts are not that we need to be sneaking around each other's rear area, but that we should concentrate on striking where convinent, withdrawing on our own terms, reforming where viable and organizing where practical.

You are right. We do need to deny comfort to the enemy. But it's wishful thinking to poison and such. Rather we must snipe and engage, disengage and shoot whenever we can.

As for mess facilities, that's why I'd rather have a future wife onboard, so she can fry the potatoes and bring them to the foxholes, rather than task me with having to prepare, transport and clean up.

Asher, although I believe some eastern philosophers are correct, I disagree about stealing food from the enemy. What keeps them from staging an assault where we eat poisioned food, or (a la Red Dawn) end up with gunships after us. Isn't it better to plan to support yourself. Just because you're militia doesn't mean we get to rob the farmers for meat and milk.

CK

Remember the 3s. I'm not even sure if this is appropriate this thread but. You can live 3 minutes without air, 3 days without water, and 30 days without food. You stop being hungry after 3 days of not eating... I fast at times and know this to be true.

You also want to spend some time camping in seasons where it is rough. Freeze you ass off. Worst case scenario you pussy out and climb into the truck and drive back to your warm bed and try again later with better gear. Kill some shit and eat it. Actually start a fire with your magnesium and flint, shit try doing it with shoestrings and a bow. Leave the hotdogs at home and fish. Eat some snails and crawfish. They actually taste great...

Stop eating for a week. It wont hurt you... Unless you are diabetic. After 3 days the hunger should be gone. You wont starve to death.

Familiarize yourself with these conditions. There will be no surprises later and you will be a stronger man....

S

Sisu,

Know what you mean. But I believe the performance abilities go down significantly without food. After all, we can go without food, but why not prepare, and have access to it?

CK

A bullion cube added to your cup of hot water boosts moral. A tea bag is a taste of normal life but not essential. We need food. I am guilty of not reading the entire thread. I am pro gardens, livestock, steeling enemy food, food caches, etc...

And yes! We need access to it. Without being a pack rat we still have access to food. What good is my year supply of grain, canned meat, stored water, etc if I cant get to it?

Anyway ideally we are prepared. But regardless we will survive. I have a roth IRA and a 401k. They may be worthless by the time I call on them.

Learn to make do! And practice making do!

You can't pack your farm on your back!

You can take a firearm, a knife, a poncho, etc!

If you can, have one or two of the REMFs designated as cooks and in charge of a chuck wagon. It could be a van, pickup, or SUV, with maybe a trailer with the stoves, tarps, folding tables, coolers, etc.

If it all runs smoothly, the unit should be able to concentrate more of its time and energy on combat training and less on how thet're going to heat their ramen noodles.

However, the vast majority of units just simply aren't big enough to really justify having a chuck wagon during peace time.

SBL,

Exactly. Some kind of system where you could get hot food to men who are actually doing the fighting. However, there must be some kind of preparation. Militia need to realize that they can't just raid their neighbors livestock if they are hungry. They need to put away for themselves. So now's the time, while salt, tea, sugar, wheat, water and whiskey are cheap, to stock up and make some plans.

And who's to say running the chuck wagon isn't a good way to get family involved. A 16yo girl might not want to run around in the muck, but could be a stellar field cook.

CK

Well when I was stationed at Camp Casey Republic of Korea; we had someone penetrate our base and release diseased rat into our water tank on post. So we had an NBC situation where no showered for two weeks, all we ate was C-rats and MREs & we had to drink iodined water for a month. We were lucky to get fresh water in the field coming from other posts.

While your shooting I can slip into an AO without notice. Depending on why I'm there I can sabotage anything, food is an easier target then fuel & fuel is an easier target then an AHA (Ammo Holding Area). I can get in because no one thinks about hitting those kind of targets.

Well there are two serious problems with your plan there...
1) You're putting your wife in harms way needlessly & 2) your putting your unit in harms way needlessly. If your fighting a guerrilla war the first targets will be your family & if they know you're location it put them in danger (even more so if they know but aren't with you.

As far the whole issue of poisoning their own food, no one ever does. Its bad enough when a whole company has the flu, can you imagine food poisoning or even actual poisoning.

Well imagine if a cook or private on KP gets the food mixed up? As for a red dawn situation; eh its a judgement call. Will die quicker from poison or starvation? You kinda have to let the situation dictate itself there...

I never said to rob anyone and please don't put words in my mouth to justify your stand. I said steal from the enemy, not everyone else. I'm not talking about Eastern methods alone the same can be applied to western tactics as well.

I was a scout, and that meant that sometimes I had to distract or destory something to divert the enemy's attention. Great targets if you were inside their AO was chowhalls, recrational buildings or even camp showers. Why because most people in those places were comfortable & unarmed (or at least unprepared for contact with the enemy). Whats a better target one with plenty of enemy casualties and a low defensive position or armed and ready to fight patrols & check points..?

I can't even justify having a chuck wagon in war. If the militia goes to war its going to be as a guerrilla force unless we are supporting the government military forces; in which case they will have such. Otherwise, its gonna be travel light & live out a pack, maybe live out a vehicle of some kind if situation dictates.

However, a chuck wagon is just a perfect target for a predator drone, artilery, mortars, air strikes or cruise missle. Small infantry squads & smaller guerrilla cells are allot harder to find and hit. That means we will have to use the Asian guerrilla method of "in the field" resupply; such as raiding the enemy, civilian support & growing our own. The militia is not a regular military force, sure some regular combat methods can be applied to use but regular means of supply & especially field operations...

I think part of the program is dual use stuff. Personally, I have never been with a group that had a major problem with just designating someone in charge of the campfire, whoever wakes up first puts the coffee on, that sort of thing.

As for group activities in peacetime, a chow tent or "chuck wagon" is legit. Have people bring what they can contribute then some sub-unit is designated to handle chow. That becomes a bigger issue for long term survival groups as the meals become the defacto daily meetings.

I suspect the most likely enemy is just going to be eating at Denny's on an account, and nuking every Denny's you encounter is not going to solve or create any major logistics problems but could prove to be a public relations disaster.

Want to piss off an organized armed force? Attack their comfort logistics...food, water, laundry, latrines. Make them sweat - keep them locked up in armored vehicles. Harassing fire at night to keep them up at night, etc.

Keep them tired, thirsty and hungry (as much as possible), stinky and they'll get demoralized pretty quickly. Then they make mistakes.

Plus, the tail is usually not well defended...

Yes. Especially the last part. Guerillas are best suited for kicking ass... literally. That is to say "The Rear". You want to stop that tank platoon or LAR unit in your area? How about that air presence? If you can take them head on, and win, Im impressed. An IED or mine here and there? Ok. Thats a little more realistic. Anyone got stingers or sa7? Rather than tangle with the front line troops (who are quite prepared to, and fantasize about killing you) on their terms, or fire your FAL into the air with utter futility at the sound of jet engines a mile or two over head, why not sneak into their rear and blow up a fuel depot or maintenance shop? Maybe even catch some of these vehicles at the motor pool or on the tarmac. I know it sounds risky and difficult. Sappin aint easy, but someones got to do it. Is it really any more risky than confronting enemy grunts or armor out in injun country? Deny the enemy his logistics. Starve him. Screw with his mail. Wear him down. Moral is the most important commodity to a unit. The fighting man has one basic mission- "Destroy the enemy OR his will to fight." The last part of this is frequently over looked.

On a side note about the chuck wagon idea... A few years ago while in the Marine Corps I was involved in a deployment in Peru. Their logistics situation was interesting to say the least. They dont have the funds to have MREs or even much in the way of processed "storable" foods in the rear. While in the field they would establish in their "rear" areas no shit butcher tents. This might be a little more Guerilla friendly. Throw up a tent or occupy a building, butch up a cow, pig, deer, whatever, and displace. More of a chuck wagon in spirit.

An idea... If your worried about food availability, take advantage of the easiest food storage solution. Get non-modified seeds, potatoes, etc. Stuff that will blend in ok. Go plant in in some fields in your AO. Not like the local park. In the woods if they will take shade, in meadows, where you go to FTX. Make sure its good hardy plants, not stuff that will smother.

Potatoes are great for this concept, a 10 or 50 lb bag can make a lot of gut fuel. They go in lots of soils, they are short, dark and will spread if you don't dig them up. All you need is a spade and knowing the area they are in and you'll have atleast something to put on the plate, raw or not.

Learn how to hunt, cook, grow vegtables, and preserve foods. Also take into account water supplies.

Smart, I never thought of that on a matter of scale but the concept is valid. I had a bag of onions here start to sprout faster than I was eating them, so I took the extras out to an old garden spot in the back yard and just planted them. You could do the same with potatoes for sure.

One thing about sustenence farming is that it tends to be labor intensive. Modern farms generally have low population density and high infrastructure dependence due to economic reasons and limitations of available on-site labor. The workforce for labor intensive farming tends to be mobile and transient to some degree, but often falls into a pattern of working a circuit of farms through the seasons.

Inserting a group into that flow, or simply having some equipment and knowhow to quickly convert a rural property into a village commune type farm is one manner in which a fighting group can be integrated to some degree with a support group. This however, would also mean small, highly mobile and perhaps fairly elite fighting units which enjoy a concentration of support resources while the support structure (the mobile but economically sustainable families) support the activities of a fairly open security group, and then a very secretive fighting group.

A concentration of forces would be the various fighting groups converging on an operations area within proximity of a hotspot, and at that, supplies get pre-staged and sent in. I could see a fighting group being deployed to a hotspot with enough money to say, rent some low end worker housing or property, do local recon, then a few support groups move in with a concert or trade show, but stay a while, setting up support resources for the fighting group, or specialized support groups setting up resources for fighting and security groups. Some of the groups would be food production, storage and service specialists.

One type of specialist is the foraging specialist. That person is an expert at obtaining supplies and food. Not just in hunting, but barter and trade. Someone with economic savvy and the ability to obtain game and farm sourced meat. Back when I was wheeling and dealing guns, it was not particularly hard to find some backwoods teenagers who would trade or sell fresh salmon or elk at very generous rates if they were provided small amounts of cash, ammo and the occasional $89 Moisin or SKS. Their parents encouraged the self sufficiency.

If you are a guerrilla without local support, and the locals are not even willing to do business with you without price gouging then you are in a hostile area and have no business fighting for anyone's rights or freedom there unless your common enemy is so repulsive that you feel ultimately honor bound to do it. It is one thing to be a well paid professional engaging in conflicts supposedly on behalf of the general public, entirely another when you are a volunteer being forced to support yourself in a hostile environment.

Foraging specialist = logistics peronnel. Something I been preaching for a long time. Trade, Barter, communal property, "volunteer crops" (those that you plant and dont really care for, but grow anyways), safehouses, medical, ammunition, food... These are the territory of the unit Quatermaster/logistic personnel. Its every bit important as operators. In a way more so, cause the operator needs the supplies to keep going, without them the rifle is a fancy club and ribs are what stick out of your chest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_gardening

OK, just in case anyone was curious....


GARDENING IS HARD WORK.

I spent today on the tractor, preparing the garden. 5 gallons or so of diesel fuel, a couple quarts of hydraulic fluid, several square inches of skin, four quarts of water, half a tube of sunscreen later, our garden (about 3/4 of an acre) is plowed, tilled and ready for planting..

Oh, next week I have to fix the irrigation line and the fence. The wife will transplant the started plants this week, and I get to plant the seeds. What fun.

This year we're doing potatoes in tires...we'll see how it works.

Last year we had a problem with deer (and an elk) jumping the fence(s) and getting into the garden. Our dogs would just get them riled up, and they'd damage more of the crop. This year, we have a plan: Our Siberian Husky is shedding like there's no tomorrow, and the fur we save from that gets tied to the fence (later, when the crops start growing) to dissuade the deer from jumping the fence. We'll see if that works.

Has anybody here ever cooked an entire deer on one of those pig cookers?

Flight-ER-Doc, Could you explain the tire method for potatoes. Sounds like a good option for those with little room. Thanks

Yup... What ya wanna know about it? We have also done hind quarters in a barrel smoker that is a treat bro. A couple years ago my bro shot a pretty small fawn so we figured the best thing to do was bury is in some drenched burlap bags in a pit we dug covered with coals for 16 hours...

On a big pig cooking spit ya really gotta watch it and keep the humidity really high. the meat is so lean. But you still have all the fat you normally would cut off when butchering on the outside so in a way it is self basting. You almost gotta be an idiot to fuck up a hog on a spit. A deer can be done and is really good but you gotta be on top of it. At least if the goal is some kick ass BBQ. If its just some needed protein, who cares?

And while im on the topic of venison learn to corn the extra meat. My grandma used to do it on the porch and it was better than any corned beef I ever had. It may be because I never had corned beef that was real and not processed at a plant... Anyway most people don't have 3 season porches... That my friends is a free refrigerator in my area four+ months of the year. then once it isnt cold anymore it is the perfect place to start your tomatoes, peppers, and basil. All the roots go in the celler. We even use our canned tomatoes on our tacos in the winter. When ya got zucchini growing out your ears can them. You have zucchini bread all year long. I could go on forever.

That's what people learned to do the last time SHTF... What will you do when you run out of vacuum packed TV dinners?

Oh, for the days of the blistered hands, bloodied knuckes, sun-burnt neck and the numbing effect of the vibrating tractor. I remember gardening the 1 acre plus plots and the months of labor that followed prep and planting. What a pain in the arse for cheaper food.

That said, I would prefer to be able to do that in my own back yard, and someday I will. But for now I live in an apartment complex, and thats my lot.

Thanks for the link. Its kinda the idea I propose, though Im more for not impeading on the useability of anothers land. These people are doing it for political purposes (except the workers who use the land because it was there and they needed the porduce to live). If they believe that planting in derilect properties is ok, fine by me, but they better not be upset if the owner comes back and plows the ground over.

Forests in WA are abunant and there are clear cuts everywhere on the west side. Its not a far strectch of imagination to consider planting potatoes and other vegies in those, and it wont hurt the land or its value at all, infact, the vegies will often help renurish the land and make the trees grow better. As the trees grow up, the plots will die off because they get cut off from light, but thats how it goes. This form of gardening requires minimal input, and yields moderate output, but needs to be continually re-updated with new plots planted.

Most logging companies allow hunting, camping, and other recreational use of thier land. Consider, Im not talking a garden plot, Im talking planting in an area in such a manner that the produce will remain hidden and be able to grow as well. Some foods are better for this than others, and who knows, on a forage retrieval op you might find a deer to take home too.

BTW, try planting squash near or arround the garden, I've heard that deer dislike the stuff, though I never got the chance to try it out.

Folcwine01 study up on survival gardening.
Or everytime your out in the woods where you like to play start planting garlic/onion set/oragano etc.
Or around streams/ponds etc plant mint starts.Most of these will already have some type of meat in or around it.Just need seasoning.
Or if you come across fields scatter carrot/turnip/beet etc.
In the city when you visit the parks or wooded areas do the same thing.