Let's Talk Water

The most important thing.

For storage it seems that the way to go is with 55 gallon drums, but that just isn't practical for me right now. What I HAVE begun to do is stock up on bottled water and store tap water in empty 2-liter bottles. It seems like a cheap way to store water. How long should this water last before going bad in 2-liter bottles?

For killing bacteria what are the best ways to do it? I know bleach, boiling, iodine, filtering, and other methods work but I really would like a good lesson in this before I feel confident in drinking river water.

I know bleach isn't an option on the go and sometimes boiling isn't either. I plan on buying a portable water filter and some type of water purification tablets to use in combination though I don't know which ones are the best.

For in home use I have a gallon of regular unscented bleach (sodium hypochlorite) and also a PUR water filter for any type of sediment. I'm not sure exactly how many drops per gallon to use though. I also know that bleach won't kill all microorganisms.

I just wanted to start a discussion on purifying water, because I would like to learn about it.

It is getting a little late even for me so I will have to make this quick.

If by 2 liter bottles you are referring to plastic bottles that once held Soda like Coke Pepsi etc then the water will not last very long. I have read that bottles that have held anything except water should not be used since plastic absorbs a little of what was in it and it will contaminate the Water after a while, which is not a good thing for long term storage.

What I used to do when I thought I might need to have water stored was to use bottles that once held Spring Water and I also used one Gallon bottles that once head Cranberry Juice and when the emergency was over I got rid of the water in the juice bottles.

Now as to Water Filters etc.

First thing that needs to be considered is where are you getting the water from and what might be in the water.

Next thing is are you looking for something to use for your home water use or for in the field.

Now as far as I know boiling will kill all biological contaminates but is a big pain and requires the use and consumption of fuel which may be in short supply and it take a little while.

Filters work fine as long as you use them correctly except most of them don't filter out Viruses since a virus is too small to filter. The only Filters that will remove Viruses are Reverse Osmosis Filters. Reverse Osmosis Filters are also the only way other then Distillation which will filter out Viruses and they will also convert Salt Water to Drinking Water, which if you live near the Ocean may be very useful.

Also some Filters contain Activated Carbon to get rid of Chemical Contaminants

As far as I know the only other ways other then Reverse Osmosis to get rid of viruses is through the use of chemicals or boiling.

Now as to your PUR Filter it may or may not remove or deactivate Viruses. Some PUR filters use a chemical to kill viruses and a regular filter for everything else.

Now as to the danger of Viruses, I have read that Viruses are not that much of a problem unless you are in an area where there is a chance of contamination cause by people, if you are in a remote area basic filtration is all that is required.

What I use is a Katadyn pump type Filter, and the reason I bought it was because it can be used to Filter 11,000 Gallons of water before requiring a new filter.

The PUR Filter used for camping does not Filter as much water and the big problem is it can only kill viruses from a very small amount of water. So while is is very good for camping or a hunting trip it is not good for long term survival.

My suggestion for a low cost home Filter is a Katadyn Drip Filter that should supply enough water for your family depending of course on how large your family is. My mother had 13 brothers and sisters.

There is another drip filter the BRITISH BERKEFELD, it is supposed to be good but I don't know much about them. The only thing if anyone does get a BRITISH BERKEFELD please don't get it from John Manity from Frugals, since I think he is a total jerk.

And for short term use in the field the PUR is probably as good as any other, for long term use the Katadyn.

Now if it can be afforded a good Reverse Osmosis Filter would be best for your home and Reverse Osmosis Filters are also available for use in the field.

The biggest problem with Reverse Osmosis Filters is their Cost and Size but if you want the safest water then they are worth the cost if you can afford one.

There are also Water Distillation systems for your home that are not too costly but they need electricity to function.

Also you can make your own still that does not require electricity, Moonshiners have been doing it for a very long time, the only difference is you will be using it to make drinking water, the principle is the same.

This is the filter I currently have except I have the older model without the output hose:

http://www.waterfilters.net/Katadyn-Pocket-Camping-Water-Filter_p_0-334.html

These are the other Katdyn filters:

http://www.waterfilters.net/Filters/campingfilters/campingfilters.htm

BRITISH BERKEFELD Filters:

http://www.arctic-1.com/filters.htm

Reverse Osmosis Filters

http://www.freedrinkingwater.com/water-contamination/water-contaminants-pollutants-list.htm

http://www.home-water-purifiers-and-filters.com/reverse-osmosis-filter.php

Counter Top Filter
http://www.ecrater.com/product.php?pid=6375020

For Camping:
PUR
Survivor 06
Manual Watermaker
Weight about 2 ½ Lbs

http://www.landfallnavigation.com/-sas07.html

PUR
Survivor with higher output of 1.2 gallons/hour

http://www.landfallnavigation.com/-sas35.html

Other models

http://www.landfallnavigation.com/watermaker.html


For camping??

http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/101278959/Camping_Reverse_Osmosis_Unit.html


I hope this has been of some help.

I seem to have made a longer post then I originally intended, oh well.

The slick system for people with homes is a couple of plastic 55 gallon drums daisy-chained into their normal water supply. When I lived in the city I had some hooked up to my water softener line - any time a tap went on or a toilet was flushed, the water ran through 4 barrels before it got into the house system so I had 200 gallons of self-refreshing water.

2 liter bottles are OK - rinse them out well. Another good and inexpensive system is to get some of these http://www.amazon.com/Reliance-Prod...8&s=sporting-goods&qid=1275317975&sr=1-1 (we get them at Wal Mart, and I don't believe they were anywhere near $30) and fill them with tap water...then put a capful of plain old chlorine bleach and seal them. We still have a few of these around and I refresh the water once a year: The water is fine when I dump it out.

You can even disinfect (but not purify) water in the 2-liter bottles, if you have a lot of sun: Fill them and put them in bright sun on a dark surface, the water will get hot enough to kill most anything growing in it.

Personally I'm not too worried about stuff leaching out of the plastic: Our ability to detect stuff is a lot better than our ability to find out if what we detect is toxic. And what people forget is that almost anything else including metal containers, glazed ceramic containers, wooden containers, rock containers, etc will also leach into the water.

Thanks for the information. And while we are on the topic about water, what is the truth about fluoride? Alot of people on here say its toxic but what is the medical truth behind this?

Also what about water prufication tablets? Where do they come into play?

Me rinse out gallon milk jugs fill with water,then place them in milk crates.

4 to crate,store in dark space.

Like closet/basement,change water every six months to be safe side.

If and when you have to use water that taste flat.Pour water back and forth using 2 containers.

To me, I don't think I could never get the milk taste out enough. Just thinking about that makes me ill.

Fluoride is good. Fluorine (the elemental form of it) is bad. Most everyone who thinks they have something to say about fluoride gets the hazard info for fluorine. Just as elemental sodium is quite toxic (it will explode on contact with water) it's essential when mixed with chlorine (another very toxic element) in the body. Nothing would work without it. Fluoride is a critical part of bone synthesis and is quite good at preventing dental caries.

Fluoridating water (where needed) has improved dental health tremendously in the US, and dental health has significant health implications for the rest of the body. When I go to the dentist (twice a year) I get a fluoride rinse.

For chemical water purification I like polar pure - elemental iodine crystals. Follow the directions. It doesn't go bad, which is an improvement over any of the pills. However, killing pathogenic organisms doesn't take care of chemical pollution, so I prefer filters when possible. I use the MSR/Sweetwaters, it seems like it has a good price/performance point. Ceramic filters like in the Katadyne (also a good brand, but pricey) have problems with freezing and cracking, while the instructions for the MSR say to store wet filters in the freezer between trips (I just replace them).

When i rinse out the milk jugs I add a little bit of bleach to the bottles with degreaser dish soap.
Then let air dry out in the sun, before I refill them. Seem to help.

Ah, so a good filter will also do the job of removing organisms that chemical purification would? Also I heard iodine tablets shouldn't be used for more than 2 weeks.

Most filters have both a very fine screen and some sort of activated charcoal. The very fine screen gets most of the bacteria and some viruses (they usually have some sort of iodine resin bed also to kill the rest of the viruses), and the activated charcoal adsorbs anything but water...It's not perfect, but pretty useful anyway.

Commonly Available Filters will only filter out bacteria and other large organisms they will not filter out Viruses. The only Mechanical Filters that will are the Reverse Osmosis Filters. If you check out the sites I posted links to you will find out that they are very expensive and very heavy. The one that actually produces enough water to be useful for Militia use weighs about 7 lbs and costs about $1,800.

Not quite. It depends on the size of the virus - some pathogenic viruses are quite large (the size of small bacteria).

And as I said, most good filters also have some sort of method of dealing with the viruses that the filter doesnt get.

And you can get the same RO unit packed into military survival kits for around $900:

http://www.landfallnavigation.com/-sas07.html

One of the things I forgot to mention in my original post is that a Water Filter is not considered a Water Purifier. A Water Purifier removes Viruses while a filter does not.

Also I forgot to mention that Viruses can be killed by Ultraviolet Light and that is the method that is used by some Purifiers.

Sorry for forgetting but I was very tired when I posted early this morning.

From what I have seen, MOST Filters do not have Activated Charcoal and Iodine Resin and do not kill Viruses or remove Chemical Contaminants.

The Katadyn Pocket Filter only has a Ceramic Filter Element, the one that has the Activated Charcoal is the Combi Filter.

Katadyn Combi Microfilter Specs:
Dimensions: 12" x 2.4" or 27 cm x 66 cm
Technology: 0.2 micron ceramic depth filter and activated carbon
Output: Approximately 1 quart or 1 liter per min
Cartridge Capacity: 13,000 gallons or 50,000 liters (ceramic)
Carbon Capacity: 105 gallons or 400 liters (carbon)
Weight: 21 oz or 580 grams

As you can see While the Ceramic Cartridge can filter up to 13,000 gallons, the Activated Charcoal part can only remove Contaminants from 105 gallons. The Charcoal can be replaced but it will mean carrying replacement Charcoal with you.

The Katadyn Filters do not remove Viruses. In order to remove them it is necessary to Chemically Treat the Water before using the Filter.

If I remember correctly one of the PUR Filters used to have an attachment that killed Viruses but the attachment only treated about 50 Gallons before needing to be replaced.

If you need to kill Viruses you need to use chemicals before or after you Filter the water or use one of the Ultraviolet Light Purifiers. Unless you use Reverse Osmosis or Boiling or better yet distillation.

By the way the MSR Sweetwater Purifier requires the Use of Chemicals to remove Viruses.

Inactivates 99.99% of waterborne viruses; eliminates more than 99.9999% of all waterborne bacteria and 99.9% of common protozoan parasites (such as giardia and cryptosporidia, as well as particulates, bad tastes, and odors)
System meets U.S. EPA requirements for microbiological water purifiers
Just pump, add five drops of the purifier solution per liter, and wait five minutes before consuming (for optimal protection)
System includes SweetWater® Microfilter, SweetWater® Purifier Solution, stainless-steel pre-filter, two color-coded silicone hoses, foam float, water bottle adapter, cleaning brush, and carry bag
Features a replaceable 0.2-micron labyrinth filter with a filter-eplacement safety indicator
A layer of granular activated carbon in the filter improves the taste of water and reduces chemical contaminants

That Filter does not produce enough water to make it useful for Militia use. It would take far too long to get enough water even for one person.

At 2.5 pounds, this is the smallest hand-operated emergency desalinator (water maker) in the world. While extraordinarily compact in size, the PUR Survivor 06 makes an ounce of drinking water in less than 2 minutes (nearly 2 pints per hour) using a hand pump. It's recommended for 4 to 12 person

On a Life Boat if it takes hours to get the water, it is no major problem since what is there for the people to do anyway other then PUMP the Filter but the Militia have better things to do then spending hours filtering water.

Or you can do what I do: Add a purifying agent (I use iodine) to the water and let it sit before filtering it. Takes the taste of the chemicals out.

And I've actually pumped (in training) the bigger RO units used in bigger rafts...they're not suitable for most use either.

You are correct about that friend, unless a seven pound filter is your brand of hooch.

Personally I prefer to have Seven Pounds of Ammo or other important things.

what is a good bleach:water ratio? I know Flighter said a cap full but depending on your cap and container that could be different.

8-16 drops of bleach per gallon of clear water. let it sit for 30 minutes.

If the water is cloudy, double the amount of bleach.

If it is cold, double the amount of bleach.

Always strain the water before filtering. It'll make your filter last longer.

Always filter before adding chemicals. You want to remove as much of the 'big' stuff before adding chemicals.

You can always refilter to remove taste.

Only problem is a ceramic filter will not remove the taste only charcoal filters remove chemicals and remove the bleach taste from the water and the carbon filters do not process very much water before needing new charcoal.

I suppose a person can make their own charcoal filter without too much trouble and use it along with a good ceramic filter.

Also what I do is use either cheese cloth or coffee filters to strain the water before using the filter and I will take a guess that if you fill a coffee filter with charcoal it would do a fairly good job of getting rid of the bad taste and chemicals.

Here is one source I found for Activated Carbon for water filters

http://www.buyactivatedcharcoal.com/granular_activated_charcoal_8x16mesh_coconut

Main site
http://www.buyactivatedcharcoal.com/

OZONE Ozone (O3) is one of the most powerful known oxidizers. As a disinfectant, it is about
3,000 times more effective than chlorine. Yes with a proper understanding of it's operation and safety conerns YOU or your electrical/electronic craftsman can build your own Ozone Machine for cheap Ozone purified water is a well known medical sanitizer, organic garden pesticide, with several other use.. . There are several DIY instructions availabe. Here is one link. Remember YOUR safety depends on YOU!

http://www.scribd.com/doc/16799414/How-to-Build-Your-Own-Ozone-Machine-for-Cheap

Call me a caveman but I like fire.

A lil charcoal to drop in a canteen in a pinch, and boil water when it's practical to build a fire. You can now replenish some of the charcoal from the fire you just built to use as needed.

I agree with the caveman aproach in a pinch. I'm for any alternative to get it done. When time permits though, to purify larger volumes than is needed straight away Ozone makes sense. Among other uses, Ozone can be used to keep produce fresh longer. And temper flour. Or keep pests out of the pantry. There are tons of ways to put Ozone to work when Stuff hits the fan. Learning and practicing now makes sense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_up6hFzmVc&NR=1&feature=fvwp

Perhaps the hardest place is in a home with wives and kids. The use dehumidifiers to remove moisture from the air. My son's old apartment had on in the basement that had to have the drip pan removed and drained twice a day. The pan held about 2 gallons.
If you look on infowars.com they sell one that has had a filter installed and produces more water than that.
In Thailand, where it rains like hell for 6 months then none for 6 months, they hang out plastic sheets to collect moisture and shed it toward another plastic sheet to sluice it to a jar.

Sourcing water will quickly become a bigger problem than how to keep it up to standards an tasting good.

Depends on where you live. Water availability is not a problem in the Land o' lakes. Outside of the inland oceans of fresh water, the sheer number of sources in this area is astounding.

Well I just got some of the jerry cans that Flight-ER-Doc linked. They were only $10 at walmart for a 7 gallon can. It sure is easier than filling up 2-liter bottles (which I still do).

I also got two water filter straws. I'm not sure how good they work but I got some anyway since they were cheap and lightweight.

The Aquamira Frontier straw filter is advertized as good for 20 Gallons. Handy to have on the go or when rations are stretched thin. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ehf-liOalQI

Yep those are the two I bought.

The Steri-Pen will get rid of viruses.
http://www.steripen.com/

Check this one out.
http://www.steripen.com/adventurer-opti
You can get a rechargeable case for it.
http://www.steripen.com/-adventurer-opti-solar-charger

I am building a passive solar "caveman" still, and once it is completed, I will provide more information.

Basically, it is a circuit of copper pipes which "pre-heat" water which is dropped onto a track (rain gutter with a short lip) within a larger black PVC pipe. The water on the track evaporates and condenses within the black PVC, where it accumulates and drops into a holding tank or bucket.

The only power requirement would be tying into a 12v system with an RV water pump, which can be accomplished with the use of PV cells, or water can be fed by gravity.

I also have ceramic filters, and of course, charcoal can be used in various stages of purification.

Of primary importance is access to water.

Why don't you look at using Polar Pure Water Disinfectant: http://www.polarequipment.com/

You can purify up to 2,000 liters of water from a 3oz bottle. It has an indefinite shelf life.

I am purchasing 7 bottles this weekend; one each for the bug-out-bags, web gear, combat patrol pack and search and rescue pack.