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Water... #101809
03/31/2016 01:21 PM
03/31/2016 01:21 PM
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The Greywolf Offline OP
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I like many folks set up a water system, I assumed ( always a mistake) that a solar pump and tank storage would be the best in a Post SHTF environment... I think it might not be the best bet..
If an EMP was set off, solar arrays will not work after a EMP..

I am now second guessing the setup and thinking about switching to a Wind Mill(old style pump, and storage tanks..

I just have to figure out how much pressure I can from a wind mill set up versus my solar pump set up...

Anyone have a wind mill setup?

What are your thought on the switch?

Any other Ideas?

Thoughts, complaints?


I believe in absolute Freedom, as little interference from any government as possible...And I'll fight any man trying to take that away from me.

Jimmy Greywolf
Re: Water... #101810
03/31/2016 04:55 PM
03/31/2016 04:55 PM
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Will an EMP event take out 12 volt solar panels ?


PSALM 144:01 Blessed be the LORD my Rock, Who trains my hands for war, And my fingers for battle---
Re: Water... #101811
03/31/2016 05:54 PM
03/31/2016 05:54 PM
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Nobody knows for sure but the majors thinks it could. The CME apparently wipes solar panels on satellites on a regular basis.

Thing is, panels are dirt simple devices. What I see as more likely is charge controllers and other electronics getting damaged beyond easy repair.

Stratiotes did a lot of experimentation on a fairly large and powerful solar array using no charge controller at all. It seemed to work with some jump and hustle the powe flow got too high, like running around the house to turn lights and fans on to use the excess power before it roasted batteries.

Car batteries and deep cycle batteries are unlikely to be damaged by an EMP. The circuit boards in lithium ion batteries though could be a problem.

My reccomendation, have spare charge controllers, inverters and sensitive electronics in a faraday cage. The deep cycle batteries don't matter. Keep test equipment like spare multimeters In a faraday cage.

Panels that are not out being used are just going to waste, I say put around half up in service, holding others in reserve, in a faraday cage. In the event of EMP, replace fried components as needed from your supply of spares.

The parts of a solar panel which are likely to be damaged are repairable. It's a hassle but it can be done with fairly basic soldering tools, maybe a Dremel, some wire and replacement diodes. Most solar panels 15 watts and up still produce power when damaged, just less of it and will deteriorate faster when they get wet.


Life liberty, and the pursuit of those who threaten them.

Trump: not the president America needs, but the president America deserves.
Re: Water... #101812
03/31/2016 06:07 PM
03/31/2016 06:07 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by The Greywolf:
I like many folks set up a water system, I assumed ( always a mistake) that a solar pump and tank storage would be the best in a Post SHTF environment... I think it might not be the best bet..
If an EMP was set off, solar arrays will not work after a EMP..

I am now second guessing the setup and thinking about switching to a Wind Mill(old style pump, and storage tanks..

I just have to figure out how much pressure I can from a wind mill set up versus my solar pump set up...

Anyone have a wind mill setup?

What are your thought on the switch?

Any other Ideas?

Thoughts, complaints?
If you can find or make an old school manual windmill with gravity tank, then that's the way to go. The mill manually works the system of pumps and levers, moves water to a tank or cistern at an elevated location, then water has gravity pressure to the pipes and outlets. You can also fairly easily purse that setup to pressurize a passive solar setup for hot water.


Life liberty, and the pursuit of those who threaten them.

Trump: not the president America needs, but the president America deserves.
Re: Water... #101813
04/01/2016 02:39 AM
04/01/2016 02:39 AM
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The Greywolf Offline OP
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We know a solar flare melted telegraph wires in the 1800's..
Question is would a EMP whether from solar flares or Nuclear explosion in upper atmosphere destroy panel permanently?..

I don't think we have an answer, but when it happens is the wrong time to find out..

I was thinking having panels and controllers stored and faraday protected for after EMP is the bet.. But then arises questions about your batteries..

Will an EMP short them out?.. All worth looking into.. I know it has me questioning my set up..


I believe in absolute Freedom, as little interference from any government as possible...And I'll fight any man trying to take that away from me.

Jimmy Greywolf
Re: Water... #101814
04/01/2016 06:51 AM
04/01/2016 06:51 AM
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The solar flare is a large scale CME, they now call Coronal Mass Ejection. The issue with CME is that it stays on for a while, maybe a minute or two, turning long wires into heating elements. The telegraph wires of the day inadvertently acted as long antennas. The same event did little to damage equipment which was indoors or disconnected.

I don't want to get too deep into "what if the world ends" but there is certain stuff that you can't defend against without a serious underground bunker.

Your EMP wave from a weaponized EMP device is short term. It is also not exactly linear. More like a fast moving cloud or zone of radiation. It can actually seep through cracks in shielding. For example, a high power EMP can apparently get into an ammo can or trash can which does not have conductive metal tape around the lid gap. Wires leading into and out of a shielded computer can carry the shockwave, but the shielding still reduces damage.

The effects on cars they are finding are often just temporary. The police model EMP guns for example knock out the vehicle but quite often it can be restarted. You may be able to find a matching vehicle computer in a box or wrecked vehicle of similar type which was not running at the time of the EMP and use it to repair one which was damaged. Multiple EMP hits may accelerate wear and faliure on electronic devices which got hit but temporarily recovered.

We don't know much about how CME would affect power wiring in buildings, because that was just not around much in the 1800s, but in theory, it could cause fires. EMP, just too short term to be an issue.


Life liberty, and the pursuit of those who threaten them.

Trump: not the president America needs, but the president America deserves.
Re: Water... #101815
04/01/2016 06:58 AM
04/01/2016 06:58 AM
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EMP is not likely to be able to damage lead acid batteries.

Gel cell even more bulletproof.

Your best batteries are going to be large semi-truck service batteries. Bought locally from trucking shop,y places. Don't pay any extra shipping for specialized batteries of a lower capacity. You are better off just going big than going specialized when it comes to battery storage banks. Preferably, you want all of the batteries to be roughly the same age and type, but it's not necessary. I have had pretty good luck with mismatch batteries of the same voltage and some people are even using 12v large capacitors which come from the custom car stereo industry, putting the large capacitor in parallel with the rest of the battery side of the system. Apparently the capacitor prevents power fade by handling the spike in power needed by high amperage items that need a lot of power to initially get going.


Life liberty, and the pursuit of those who threaten them.

Trump: not the president America needs, but the president America deserves.
Re: Water... #101816
04/01/2016 03:01 PM
04/01/2016 03:01 PM
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If you are going to use large truck batteries, you it would be advisable to use dual purpose batteries. They have wider lead plates then starting batteries, and are used in lift gate applications. They can sustain a rapid discharge, charge cycle, where as the starting batteries will lose their integrity faster. They cost a little more than regular lead acid batteries, but are cheaper than the gels, and hold up better in long term than the gels.


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Re: Water... #101817
04/02/2016 06:24 AM
04/02/2016 06:24 AM
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We ended up with D8 batteries at the Diaxaris project. When you get to batteries that big they tend to do both starting tasks and deep cycle tasks pretty well.

A cargo trailer I bought a while back came with a set of Trojan 6v deep cycle batteries which were only three or four years old and were costly to the previous owner. They were the cause of me al'ost givng up on solar power for any off grid projects of any scale to run power tools.

I found that deep cycle batteries just don't have the poop to fart start electric motors, and in that triggers the safety cutout circuits on inverters. You pull the trigger on a 10-15 amp power saw, it starts, dies, and the inverter goes buzzing the low voltage alarm. Dual purpose batteries though it will work, even a fairly small one, but the sun has to be out and making enough amperage on your system to keep things running.

Also, everything about "wattage" on solar panels is our shit hustle when it co e sto sales talk. The power number you want to be looking at is vAmp, or amperage. It's the one question they have trouble answering too. You want the nominal voltage, which is not the same as the actual voltage...., and amperage.

You figure in terms of car and truck alternators. A 30 amp alternator runs everything in a vehicle. That's around 500 watts of 12v power.

The shit hustler tells you he has 225 watt panels, thats because they are high voltage panels, which makes you think "oh that's better". Eh kind of. Look at your basic flea market taser knockoff, and they call it a "40,000 volt" stun gun. It typically runs on a 9volt battery and will buzz you pretty bad compared to sticking your finger in a light socket. However, no matter how you add stuff up and play the power flow numbers, it's all coming from that little .2 amp battery. No way no how can you run your house on that stun gun.


Life liberty, and the pursuit of those who threaten them.

Trump: not the president America needs, but the president America deserves.
Re: Water... #101818
04/13/2016 08:37 AM
04/13/2016 08:37 AM
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Greywolf, there are a couple of things you can do to protect the system.

Install the line from the panels to the equipment in metal conduit and bury it underground.

Add ferrites to all wired devices— they MAY do you some good. Their added impedance below 10 MHz isn’t that much but they may help in the higher frequency components. If you would like to add these to your existing system, you can buy them yourself easily from Digitkey for under $2 each.

http://www.digikey.com/product-deta...-products/28A2432-0A2/240-2123-ND/571930 is just an example. That one will pass wires up to 0.3 inches.

Surge suppressors (metal oxide varistors,MOV). You should install them on input and output of the electronics. Midnite Solar makes a great line of these and you can add them to your system without too much trouble.

Here is one of the midnite devices (they come in different voltage ratings,and you need to pick one that will safely pass the voltage of the input or output that you are protecting):

http://www.wholesalesolar.com/99600...ews.com/]http://www.motherearthnews.com/ diy/diy-ceramic-water-filters-revisited-zbcz1604.aspx[/url]


"The time for war has not yet come, but it will come and that soon, and when it does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard." Gen. T.J. Jackson, March 1861
Re: Water... #101819
04/13/2016 12:01 PM
04/13/2016 12:01 PM
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The Greywolf Offline OP
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Thanks CSC I'll look into all that..


I believe in absolute Freedom, as little interference from any government as possible...And I'll fight any man trying to take that away from me.

Jimmy Greywolf
Re: Water... #101820
04/13/2016 10:22 PM
04/13/2016 10:22 PM
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A few days ago I had this conversation with the main tech consultant at Real Goods in Hopland California, basically the original real deal Mecca of the off grid world. They have been running educational seminars for 20 years now.

Consensus is that batteries are definitely EMP proof. Panels could be damaged but repairable.

There was no mention of surge suppressors, but the concept makes sense.

There was mention of metal shielding on the cables, like running the cables in metal conduit.

Backup charge controllers, inverters and voltage testers stored in Faraday cages seems to be the best bet for long term preparation.


Life liberty, and the pursuit of those who threaten them.

Trump: not the president America needs, but the president America deserves.
Re: Water... #101821
04/17/2016 12:46 PM
04/17/2016 12:46 PM
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I hope everyone realizes that EMP would not be just a one time event. Every time a nuke goes off it makes EMP. The higher above ground the nuke is set off the farther the EMP burst travels. The closer you are to ground zero even with a ground burst the more EMP you get. The longer the wires are that your equipment is hooked up to the higher the EMP voltage it receives is.

Water cannot be pulled up anymore that 25 feet. But water can be pushed up hundreds of feet. It is a law of physics.

A regular deep well pump has an outer pipe called the casing and inside the casing is a smaller diameter pipe with and electric motor water pump at the bottom of the pipe.

A good purely mechanical means of getting water from a deep well is to blow air down the well casing through a hose or a pipe. The air pressure will push the water our the top of the well casing. A large air compressor with an electric motor can be used instead of an electric pump motor at the bottom of the well.

With no electricity to run the well air compressor it could be geared to be cranked by hand.

I have seen and worked on this kind of air compressor well water drawing method. It is used in areas where sand keeps plugging an electric well pump at the bottom of the well. So they remove the electric well pump at the bottom of the well and use compressed air to bubble water up the casing instead.

This air compressor method is also used with an air hose to test newly drilled water wells to save the expense of the inner pipe, electric pump motor, and the wires to the motor in case there is no water in the well.


www.TexasMilitia.Info Seek out and join a lawful Militia or form one in your area. If you wish to remain Free you will have to fight for it...because the traitors will give us no choice in the matter--William Cooper
Re: Water... #101822
04/17/2016 09:43 PM
04/17/2016 09:43 PM
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The North Korean EMP satellite, as far as anyone knows, they have just one.

Nobody else who has the stuff is considered crazy enough to use it.


Life liberty, and the pursuit of those who threaten them.

Trump: not the president America needs, but the president America deserves.
Re: Water... #101823
04/18/2016 11:36 AM
04/18/2016 11:36 AM
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CME's are always a possibility; but at least we will have some warning with a limited amount of time to prepare.


"The time for war has not yet come, but it will come and that soon, and when it does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard." Gen. T.J. Jackson, March 1861
Re: Water... #101824
05/21/2016 05:31 AM
05/21/2016 05:31 AM
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Here's some more good info from MtnForge.

Quote
Here is I hope some handy info for consideration on calculating cistern size and water use.
I obtained this info from a number of sources and employed selectively it in developing such a system.

As a matter of oft neglected or unknown importance in the conversation pertaining to water collection and storage from roof rain water sources, it is advisable to employ a “washer” and filter system, as a roof naturally collects many types of organic substances and debris, from bird droppings and leaves, to soot and ash from a solid fuel house heating system.

A “washer” is basically a roof water sub system designed to divert a volume of roof water in the beginning of a period of precipitation, allowing debris to literally be washed from a roof surface, and not collected in a cistern/tank. (As untouched rain water is a great solvent, it is pure water being it has essentially been distilled through natural evaporation, it is it’s own built in scrubber, the idea is to have a system which takes advantage of this attribute). The traditionally accepted amount used in washing is open to interpretation due to a number of variables, frequency of rain, type and use of house heating, seasons, etc, but 1/3 of total annual rainfall should be considered “wash” and other lost water.

A filter is a traditionally a 2 stage device, which employs a series of course screens/perforated metal, set at an angle prior to the entrance of input flow into the filter system, this aspect diverts large debris, such as leaves, twigs, dead animals etc, out of the filter system. Below this debris diverter there is a compartment/tank section, with a valved outflow at the lowest point, this valve and section allows for draining of filter to avoid freeze damage and permit a portion of roof water to escape during the roof washing operation, then it is closed, where continued collected roof water can flow into an upwards flow filter bed. There are actually two filter beds, the first is upwards flow, the second stage being a downwards flow, which is fed by the upwards flow filter, allowing for both filter beds to drain dry avoiding freeze damage. Both filter beds use perforated metal plates, on each end of the filter mediums, which consist of large stone, from roofing pea stone to golf ball size, which hold layers of finer gravel, sand, and charcoal from washing out during filtering. It is a very simple design, can be built out of wood, metal or concrete. The use of 304 stainless is highly recommended for all or and metal components in the filter/washer system, because of it food safe and non corrosive alloy characteristics. Also it is recommended to employ diverter valves or gates in the conductor pipes coming from gutters and scuppers.

One method for determining the capacity of the cistern required is to multiply the square foot roof area used to collect water by inches of rainfall, and divide by 1.6

Then determine the daily gallons of water requirements per person per day times 365 days.

Using this equation, a family of 5, @ 5 gals per day, times 365, figures out to an annual requirement of 9,125 gallons of water to be collected and stored. Any figure works, as you might only want potable water for cooking, canning, other food processing, water for livestock, and intimate washing of body and cookery, and your needs could be met with smaller, or larger demands.

An important point to keep in mind, you don’t receive all this water normally in one shot, and you have to figure in for dry spells and low precipitation years, so a minimum storage capacity is a prerequisite in determining cistern capacity.

There are different schools of thought on how large a cistern, based on use verses potential precipitation, but 1/3rd of total yearly requirements is considered a bare minimum, usually half a years needs is considered prudent. You can not have too much clean safe water.

In my AO, we receive on average 47 inches a year, figure 1/3 as wash/waste, on our roof we have the potential for 53,000 gals of usable water. A 6’x6’x12′ inside dimension block and motor cistern, set on a concrete footer, =’s 2,537 gals capacity. We have more water in normal weather years than we require, @ a rate of use of 10 gals per day for 2 people. You must take into consideration your climactic conditions in all instances, as for example you may receive all your rain in only one season, so it is critical to have cistern capacity to carry through the dry seasons, or any of the myriad of different weathers seen across the continent.

Another aspect of cisterns, which Mike touched upon in his previous comment above involves gravity feed, or what is also known as water column. Water column is a function of height only, not volume, a 1 inch pipe 10 foot tall has the same pressure at the bottom of this column of water as a tank 10 foot tall by 100 foot wide.

Remember here we are talking about sustainable resources and all it entails to employ, use, and run them. Labor is valuable, so is time, in this sense, it makes common sense to have a tall as possible cistern, use the water column to benefit, either by placing your cistern strategically where gravity can provide direct flow to your plumping, or assist what type of pump system you have incorporated, saving muscle power or off grid power. It is that whole holistic thing again, where you try to incorporate as many sustainable and beneficial aspects of your labor and resources into as many functions and dual uses/multi tasks as can be figured for. When you have to hand pump your water, or use precious fuel or off grid power to run an electric pump, you end up using less water by rational standards. So that can end up being a safety margin in usage. Things to think about.

We have what is called a rotary vane pump, or a SIGMA Double Acting Semi Rotary Hand Wing Pump. It is plumbed into our domestic water system, in parallel to a 12 volt service pump which runs off an off grid battery bank. With the use of a couple of ball valves and check valves, a pressure bladder tank, we have the option of running either pump, and have a pressurized domestic water system. The rotary hand pump can produce a max 37psi, 20 ft of lift, and 25ft discharge. We have to run down to the basement and pump our system to full pressure a couple times or three a day if our battery bank is getting low like on a run of cloudy days or little wind, as we have solar panels and wind turbines to charge our battery set. (It is a big honking 850lb 12 VDC 1200 amp hr fork truck battery).

The block cistern as built incorporates a troweled on mortar liner and concrete filled blocks to fully reinforce and waterproof it. It has a sump formed in the concrete footer to collect any sediment, and to fully drain the cistern for annual clean-out when precipitation is adequate to permit such maintenance. A conductor pipe from the outlet of the roof washer/filter, terminates about 6 inches from the footer, enclosed in a “tinkers damn”, or baffle, made of block sitting on the footer so when flow is present, turbulence is minimized to limit stirring up any accumulated sediment. Before we filled it for the first time, we washed the interior surfaces with a strong solution of water and baking soda, let it set for a day, gave it a good rinsing with a hose, and let her fill up with rain. The baking soda being highly alkaline, neutralized the high mineral content of the mortar and concrete, improving the quality of the collected water. I hear some folks let theirs fill up, leave it to set for awhile, drain it and refill to use. Probably either method works equally well as it basically fully cures the concrete if I understand the science correctly.

Notes:

To determine possible cistern volume, gallon capacity can be determined within a high degree of accuracy using the two following trusty pipe fitters formula’s *:

Round tank capacity in gallons, measurements in inches:
Capacity = diameter x diameter x .7854 x length divided by 231

Rectangular tank capacity in gallons, measurements in feet:
Capacity = length x width x height x 7.48

*(Regardless of type of cistern design, be sure to calculate using inside measurements of your type of tank to obtain accurate capacity)

Source for rotary hand pumps:
http://www.handpumps.com

Rintoul’s above now carries a wider range of hand pumps, the Sigma pump is been renamed “Excelsior E2”

There are a variety of online papers, from university and state/county agricultural extension offices on the theory and construction of cistern systems. Though like most agrarian and rural related self determining/self sufficiency resources which in the past where promoted and sanctioned by state entities, they are disappearing rapidly.

Just to reiterate some important aspects which can get lost in the forest for the trees, the cleaner your water which is first collected and stored in your cistern, the longer it will remain viable and sanitary. After all the idea is to have a source of safe water to begin with. I know that sounds simple, but just collecting as much water as possible is but one object of the scope of such a system. All sorts of organic contaminants can possibly be collected and build up, to pollute your water source without suitable washing and filtering of roof water, from dead mice and birds, frogs, toads, insects, and animal droppings, vegetable matter and tannins from tree leaves, pollen, etc. Then there is soot, ash, creosote and other byproducts of combustion to consider that can deposit on your roof if you heat your building with a solid fuel stove or furnace.

The imperatives of a roof washer/filter bed are something which only you can determine, but if potable water storage is the prerequisite, their importance can not be overstated.


"The time for war has not yet come, but it will come and that soon, and when it does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard." Gen. T.J. Jackson, March 1861

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