This is not meant to inflame anyone's sense of pride in how they train. This is merely a realistic answer to a good question.

The reason nobody is shooting back is because the Police perform an Ambush. They hit you while your sleeping. They hit you when you come home. They hit you when they know you won't be ready. They hit you with overwhelming force. They are far more highly trained in CQB. Unless you are a HSLD operator you have zero chance of survival.

If a person were to set up an early warning system using simple seismic sensors triggering an alarm or even motion detection and some cameras. The ability of the police to raid your house would be far lower.

With the exception of a few most militia guys have no clue what they are doing. They don't spend the time that is required to have the speed and skill necessary to shoot a thug attacking them on the street much else a High speed death squad.

It takes some serious skill to fight off an 8-12 man death squad. Even if you have 8-12 men. Playing army and infantry tactics won't get it done. In fact I don't think too many people with massive military experience have what it takes to defeat a SWAT team.

I know many HSLD people. Some from Vietnam, Most from Iraq and Afgahnistan. Some from other countries and some couldn't even tell me who they were. The topic of what do you do when the SWAT teams come for you always comes up. The answer is always comply with them or fortify and plan the E&E. It's never take out the opposing force.

There is a serious lack of strategy in thinking you will ever win or really even damage a death squad. You "Cannot" fight a superior force on their terms. You must "always" fight them on yours.

Either fortify your house or be smart about it and learn to escape and evade anything. This idea that anyone is ever going to last more than 2 seconds (litterally) in a fight against elite forces is insane. It's not going to happen without some serious planning. In the end you better have an E&E plan or you will eventually lose through attrition.

It's a valid question which many people have had including myself. Like was said earlier they don't go into houses where they might get shot. These are ambushes which are designed to make sure you lose.

What you do to protect yourself against unlawful home invasions before they happen is the key. Hollywood training practices need to stop and people need to get serious about protecting themselves. This applies to the military, police, Militia, and concerned citizens.

BunnyFluffer

Since I Rent there is not much I can do to slow an Entry Team down.

But if I owned my own place there is a lot I could do and I am not referring to using death traps since that would be Illegal.

Things that could be done range from simply disorienting them like by using Multiple High Watt Second Photoflashes or Covering the Floor with a large number of Marbles or large Ball Bearings.

Also a large hole in the floor covered by a Rug would create a little havoc for an Entry Team.

Also having a steel door frame and door would slow them down and if the steel door was the bedroom door the Entry Team would be at an extreme disadvantage and if after they entered the house a door automatically closed behind them I have a feeling they would not be very happy.

There are a lot of things that can be done, limited by how much money you have and how much time and effort you want to put into it.

And I am only referring to the Non-violent and legal things.

If you want to go all the way that I will leave to everyones imagination.

BunnyFluffer

Now the Absolute Best Way to deal with Swat is simply not to be home when they come through the Door.

And if you are really ticked and don't want to just escape but to get payback then you want to be across the street behind cover and concealment and be properly armed, preferably with a few good fellow Patriots. Ambush the Ambushers.

I applaud your efforts for thinking about the right strategy. The tactics need some work though.

I know not to step into a room without checking my footing. Chances are since most houses they RAID are methlabs the place is full of garbage and not very tidy. I think they have figured out about checking their footing since I was taught this by a former SWAT member.

They are not going to stack up on the door. They will come through windows and walls. You also have to live in this house. I don't think these are very practical ideas. I would probably break my hip every morning.

Steel doors even commercial are not problem for the police. They will use a Rabbit tool or simply smash the lock with a sledge hammer. If it's a really secure door they will just tear the wall off. They learn all this from firefigther who are experts in demolition of secure doors quickly. Time added to entry is less than 2 seconds. But that would buy you 2 seconds maybe even 4 if they did not know you had a steel door on the bedroom. But since they would come through your window it's not likely your door would matter.

After the Rabbit tool destroys your door it won't close behind them either. Not sure what purpose is served by locking them in a house with you?

For the sake of the impressionable minds please state that it is your imagination and not proven tactics which you are sharing.

I think I made the point in my post that it was completely possible to slow them down. However if you try to do this to the military you will have your house leveled or set on fire like in Waco. Trapping is only good to buy you time to Escape and evade. Even then these people are not nearly as stupid as some would like to believe. They encounter traps and fortifications every day on the job. They know what they are doing.

One proven tactic is to not put on any identifying documents or register with ANYONE public or private where you really live.

Route everything through a mail service using the address you register with the government. Live somewhere-anywhere-else anon. This may require a lowered standard of living. If you have family they too must have this mindset burned into them-like on the same level as wearing clothes-or your efforts will fall apart.

There are other measures but I don't want to give al kada any insight...

Do as many things as you can to make each JBT say "WTF!?" I call these 'WTF factors.' The more WTF factors you can put in their way, the better. Not just conventional booby-traps, but things like manakins, silhouettes, or even posters in every room. See how many rounds they shoot off thinking that Lord of the Rings poster is a badguy. Put large mirrors on the walls so they see their own reflection and start firing. Put as much large heavy furniture in their way. Block doorways and windows with it. Create false 'last stand barricades.' Hang sheets and tarps from the ceiling to impair their vision. Rig up dummy explosives everywhere and create a spiderweb of "trip cords."

The whole purpose of the 'WTF factors' is to disrupt their SOP. They've trained and trained and trained to operate in a certain away, under certain assumptions. They're trained to operate hard and fast. If they keep getting slowed down by random unpredictable bullcrap in their way, they lose a lot of their momentum and confidence.

All the while they're stumbling around in your fun-house, you're safe and sound elsewhere.

This will stop most LEO from finding you only because they don't have the resources to look that hard. A Private Investigator or Bounty hunter is going to find you unless you ditch your entire past including family.

Still this is good advice because it makes it that much harder to find you. If somebody knows where you are or I have enough information about your habbits. I will find you. Everyone leaves a huge trail to follow. It's the sad reality of our species. In the woods or in the city we leave huge trails that are highly personalized. Minimizing this using things like your suggestion will slow them down considerably.

I agree with the WTF factors. This works anywhere you are being followed. A professional tracker will always find you. There is no way to defeat them. Even under water Scent hounds can and will find you.

Counter Tracking is similar to the WTF factors. You cover your trail enough to make a tracker stop and think WTF? where did he go. He will find your trail but it might take him 20 minutes to get back on it.

The problem with doing this to your house is that you must still live there. All of this must be set up in advance. I would do something like this to my hide out where I know I am being followed. Probably not to my house but it would most definately work if you wanted to do it to your house.

Drug dealers have been building steel reinforced cages in the door ways to stop the Haligan and Rabit tool dynamic entry. When the door is smashed there is a wall of steel to stop them. They just started going through windows. So the drug dealers started reinforcing the windows. So SWAT started pulling the entire side of the house off. So the drug dealers just started reinforcing the entire house.

The reason for the reinforcement was not to keep them out permanately. It was to slow them down so they could destroy the evidence. Where there is a will there is a way.

A smart team covers all the exits. So you better be out before they come to get you if you want a chance to escape.

I can tell you how to avoid this kind of BS no-knock crap. However, I was banned from AR15.com for posting it.

well I am sure they wont ban you here or even shun you lol go on and say it....

Tips from a 'friend':

1. If you're building a new home, the only choice for construction material is LITE FORM. 6-8" reinforced concrete walls with steel doors will certainly delay entry, especially when the concrete is 'hidden' under vinyl siding.

2. 1/4" plywood with 2" nails (pungy spikes) placed unseen on the floor beneath windows.

3. Thin high-strength trip wires across hallways with more pungy spikes on the floor.

4. Doors that open onto dead ends or disguised as closets.

5. Use the same house number as your neighbor.

6. Put your house number on your garage, and an unassigned number on your house.

7. If your assigned house number is 1313 mockingbird lane, complete all forms with 1313-1/2 mockingbird lane. It'll buy you a few minutes.

8. Get a mailbox in a neighboring town and have all of your mail delivered there.

Friend also advised that you remember a few swat teams weakenesses.

Kevlar will stop bullets. It will NOT stop arrows, knives, or spears. A post hole driver loaded with an inch and a half sharpened oak stake will penetrate several vests when propelled by 8 ounces of black powder. A wicked surpise for those 'stacked' vests.

Same surprise loaded with steel balls and a chain do wonders to knees and ankles.

Swat teams wear no armor on the back side of their extremities.

Kevlar will melt if it gets to close to combustible chemicals and a source of ignition.

Yard, porch and window decorations that say, "front toward enemy" can be deterrents.

Strobe lights inside a home can be distracting as can a loud recording stating that, "You have entered a DHS safe house. Please leave the building and wait for Emergency Response Team outside." or "Self destruct will begin 30 seconds. Self destruct will begin in 25 seconds..."

Video cameras will allow you to relive the moment for years to come.

Kevlar doesn't melt, it burns to ash. Its the same stuff as Nomex. I had a piece of kevlar (spall blanket in an M113) that I was going to do a demo on once....all that was left was a fine brown ash.

Here's a not-so-flattering story about a NJ cop:

http://cbs3.com/local/officer.robert.melia.2.706410.html


N.J. Officer Allegedly Performed Sex Acts On Cows
Previously Charged With Sexual Assault On 3 Girls

Moorestown Patrolman Robert Melia of Moorestown was arrested without incident on April 12 and charged with aggravated sexual assault of three juvenile females.

More charges have been filed against a Burlington County police officer who was recently charged with sexually assaulting three girls.

Authorities announced Moorestown Officer Robert Melia Jr., 38, has been charged with four counts of animal cruelty after allegedly engaging in sex acts with cows between June and December of 2006.

Melia and his former girlfriend, Heather Lewis were previously charged with three counts of aggravated sexual assault and one count of criminal sexual contact with three girls in his Pemberton home from 2003 until 2006.

Melia is being held on $510,000 bail.

The sample I had melted, or at least the outer cover melted once it was sprayed with gas and lit. Perhaps mine wasn't true Kevlar?

A good Flechettes load like the ones offered by FMCO will penetrate a vest and I believe that 12 gauge Brenneke slugs will also. Of the two I would chose the Slug.

Where do people come up with this stuff?

1. You won't know their coming.

2. You will be hiding in the bushes and they will be setting up a perimeter with you in it.

3. They have full auto and in almost every case better training.

Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

You guys are hard core. I would never live in a house that would kill me and my family just so that I can avoid the very unlikely chance of a SWAT team coming to get me.

Once again I must bring back reality into this situation.

SWAT teams are not stupid. Most of the above tactics would not work on a burglar much else a SWAT team.

SWAT Teams use level 3 or level 4 plates front and rear.

SWAT teams will not be fooled easily by moving your house numbers. Your garage is obviously not the house they have the floor plans too.

Vests that police use are no longer kevlar. Most of them are using far more advanced composite materials. It also takes a tremendous about of heat to melt 39 layers of kevlar.

I would like to see you guys start trying these tactics you are saying would work. It should not be promoted publically if you have not tried it. Because that is how people get killed.

I am not trying to be a troll. I am trying to save lives by dispelling the bad information people seem to be getting.

Keep in mind every SWAT team will have different gear, different tactics, and almost universally better training than the average militia. They also have Full auto's in almost all cases.

I know this can be done but why? It's so much easier to escape and evade. Your in a losing battle if they sent SWAT in after you your days are numbered. There are so many cases of prepard people getting taken down by stupid tactics.

Maybe the cover....kevlar is a thread-like product that can be twisted into bigger threads/yarns for fabrics. It doesn't really have a 'cover' but in use (as in body armor) the layers are encased in a plastic envelope to keep the kevlar clean and dry.

Most 'SWAT' teams don't deserve the title. Thanks to fed.gov handing out tons of taxpayer money every Mayberry department got funding to create their very own 'swat' team - they got superhypertacticool black clothes (which is why 5.11 makes sizes up to 5XL), body armor, fully auto weapons (the MP5 is a fav), radios, etc.

Once they bought all those toys, some even had money left over to get some training at FLETC.

However, most of that money is long gone, and the departments don't have the budget to maintain the equipment (radios, vehicles) or buy ammo, much less send Bubba and Bubba and Billy to school to maintain the training, or send the FNG's to school. So, the various Barny Fifes get to reinforce each others bad habits, spread bad info, and ignore niceties like getting the right address on a warrant (or finding it when they try to serve the warrant).

While Big-city teams are better, and some drug joint task forces (in wealthy, high-tax base counties or regions) have adequate training budgets and facilities, most don't. I don't want to have to face any of them, but I don;'t think they're invulnerable: I occasionally see the individual officers in my ED after they screw up - and it's them making a mistake far more often than the alleged bad guy hurting them.

As far as body armor goes, it's not necessary to 'melt' kevlar (or spectra or twaron, or whatever the miracle fabric de jour is - it's all some form of aramid)to get past it. I have no idea what point you were trying to make there.

Some of the tactics mentioned will at least slow down and disorient any attacker. There are others that can be used, too. G. Gordon Liddy espoused one way of dealing with armored police back in the 80's on his radio show.

This would me far more ideal but far less likely at the same time-unless you live in certain urban war zones...

One certain way of defending against a well equipped team of urban marauders is a neighborhood wide defense; if they come in with seemingly overwhelming numbers you have at least one or two people to raise the alarm-a phone tree or even do a Paul Revere with a whistle or bell.

Every house in the neighborhood that has watchmen will have rifle-proof shooting positions at positions far from the windows. These ballistic barriers can be camoflaged inside cabinets and such. Watchmen will have what high powered rifles at the ready. Certain locations may have more...

Wherever the raid goes neighborhood watchmen on standby grab their rifles and get into the proper positions. As the urban marauders step out they take random gunfire from multiple angles as they form up for a home invasion. If other weapons are available they would be used of course. The marauders may have additional reinforcements in a perimeter encircling the targeted home and may rush to the rescue. If they remain on station the person whose house is being raided has a better chance of escaping. He's lost that home anyway.

Always shoot at the criminal with the scoped rifle first!

This sadly requires several people in your neighborhood to be ready at all times to repel intruders, because you'd never have your full neighborhood watch group around... got to work, shop.

We all talk trash about SWAT, but do any of you know where your local SWAT Live (Their office and training areas. Then you could see who they are. What is their training level, and where thy keep the weapons for that unlikely day you may need them.

Watch the movie Speed to get a good idea of what is possible.

And just think of how a Patriot can make use of a couple of Relays and a Pendent Switch.

Judging by how often they get the wrong house, I'd say this isn't the case.

The feds this time:

Well, you kinda hope the feds wouldn't intentionally target the wrong apartment. At least there's this:

Onward and upward,
airforce

In a case I first posted on September 24, 2008, the family of Darryl P. Ross has now filed a lawsuit for his shooting death .

Onward and upward,
airforce

I think these cops are spending way more time in Cover Your Ass class than Do it Right class at the police academy.

Here\'s another wrong-door raid from Washington, D.C.

David and Allyson Kitchel tell local TV station WJLA that MPDC police recently raided their home looking for a suspect wanted on weapons charges. They say the raid caused $3,000 in damage. The Kitchels bought the home from the suspect’s family 18 months ago. Police apparently raided the home after getting an address from the suspect’s mother, but didn’t bother to check public records to see if the house had been sold.

The Kitchels say when they asked the city to compensate them for the damage, they were declined. The city explained that “the warrant was authorized and valid,” and that “MPD officers determined there was sufficient probable cause.”

So I guess as long as all the proper procedures were followed, the physical damage to the house is all in the Kitchels’ imagination. Good thing they don’t have an imaginary dog, too.

I suspect that now that the Kitchels’ story has hit the media, they’ll eventually be compensated. But it makes you wonder how many times this sort of thing happens in less affluent parts of the city, where residents are less likely to have their stories covered by the local news.

Onward and upward,
airforce

Yep, that one is a clear abuse of the authority of the warrant when they take a battering ram to a door at the rear of the house when the owner clearly has the keys and identifies herself to the officers at the front of the house.

You see that in transition neighborhoods where the yuppies buy in places that used to be bad, and the cops and courts see a sharp drop in "business" but they are the same doorkicker breed and mentality that did crime suppression during the crack war years. They long for the good ol days, figure everyone is lying to them and or on dope, trying to scam something or another, so their job is to go into the neighborhood and suppress it.

Lacking serious crime, they create crime, but people get wise to that, so they come up with this new "war on guns" where they can get a dope dealer who quit the dope business but probably still keeps a gun or two around for protection. Then some incident happens like this with the yuppies and change comes with some lawsuits and social retaliation. Usually it means some serious messages from local real estate interests who are making bank from the stuff going up in value and the rehab house flippers who flip houses every year or two.

Same sorts of things were happening in much of Portland until very recently. In fact, they are even changing the signs on the "Tactical command operations center" police station to something more socially acceptable. No more rifle racks in the cars, more bike patrols, less squad cars, more of those unmarked cars. No more of the armored vehicles being used to serve search warrants either.

Another wrong-door raid , this one in Tennessee. Police enter the wrong side of a duplex, throw the residents to the floor at gunpoint, and manage to handcuff a recovering cancer patient. Then they scratched off a part of the address on the duplex to cover their mistake.

They finally did get their vicious criminal. He was selling pot.

Onward and upward,
airforce

Deputies visit the wrong house, kill the dog. Not really a "raid," but the puppycide qualifies it.

Onward and upward,
airforce

The concept of SWAT to deal with active shooters,hostage situations,and other immediate and extreme threats to life is sound.

However,enter the 'war on drugs'.Despite the necessity for the first prohibition to actually be legitimized by an actual amendment to the Constitution,and the lesson it should have taught as to its failure and the fact that violence increased by hundreds of times over when we created an illicit market for criminals to thrive off of,we have been violating the individual right to choose to be a crackhead for over 4 decades now.
It has done nothing but create extreme burdens on people caught in the middle-the average American,not to mention the burden on Liberty it imposes with forfeiture laws,skyrocketing incarceration rates,and the actual cost of this illegitimate 'war' in terms of taxation to fund it.

SWAT teams,once considered a necessity only for dealing with extreme situations, started financing their operations past the initial government grants by asset forfeiture laws.They now kick in doors for the money found in drug dealers' possession.
They kick in doors for cash.

"Hell,if the dopers get to profit from their crime,why shouldn't the police?" Say the misguided statists among us.

This has ushered in a whole new era of corruption.Rather than lone rouge cops or groups of rouge cops acting on individual proclivities of racism or greed outside the limits of their recognized authority,they are now encouraged to find and seize property and money for themselves and their agencies.

This is a game changer.

Rather than actually being outside the law in acts of corruption,this is 'lawful' as per the bureaucracy.In order to 'crack down on crime',they have made crime profitable for the state.The entire concept is that the more seizures of money you make,the more toys you get and the more money you make.This is institutionalized corruption based on nothing less than materialistic greed,which establishes police as nothing less than government sanctioned mercenaries who use military tactics that endanger life well beyond the actual 'crime' they are acting on (if a REAL crime is actually being committed at all) in order to catch a payday.

This is unacceptable.

And now where is the incentive to actually reduce crime?
One could suppose,by the twist of logic that makes crime pay for the police,that the police themselves would not like to see a reduction in the type of crime they profit from.Nor would the state,which rakes in millions of dollars in seizures annually.
Logic would dictate that it would make sense to not actually win the 'war on drugs'; about as much sense as a gift shop owner who wouldn't want to provoke a reduction in tourism.

Why end a good thing?
Even if it is killing the Constitution.....



Its all about the bottom line,right?
All about the profit.

However,this profiteering from crime makes them nothing other than CRIMINALS.

We should never tolerate the use of such extreme force in our neighborhoods,no matter what kind of neighborhood-unless there is no alternative but to use such force because of a hostage,active shooter,or other actual deadly scenario.

Serving a drug warrant for cash is simply not that kind of scenario.


I appreciate the discussion on how to deal with SWAT teams.They have gotten out of control on a national level.

However,I believe we should look at the background and history of how things got to be this way.Its all about the 'war on drugs',or rather 'The un-Amended Prohibition'.We need to be active and attempt to lawfully rescind those laws that have created this situation.
Thats our first line of action,our first line of defense.
By ending the illicit market on drugs,we not only take away the windfall profits this has given to criminals,which has enabled obscure street gangs to become international threats and in turn has given them the finances to create multi-billion dollar organizations that can rival governments,
this will also end the police-profiteering and asset forfeiture that is so detrimental to our fundamental core values of property rights in America.

We must stop electing politicians who use tragedies and fear to manipulate and intimidate us into accepting the police state and all this nonsense.

We must remind them that the most deadly entity to innocent life by and large has always been a huge powerful government,not individual criminals.

We must remind them that this is America-and here we have the right to choose to ruin our own lives with drugs,and as long as we arent violating the rights of others,there is no law they can enforce to deter that aspect of our individual liberty.

The government does not have the authority to dismantle the Constitution in order to keep people from doing what they like with their own lives.'Keeping us safe' is no longer an acceptable guise for assailing Liberty in order to keep someone from being a dope addict.(Or to legitimize police profiteering from enforcing laws).


We end the war on drugs,we end asset forfeiture laws,and we will avoid whats coming next.


Because whats coming next will not be anything less than SWAT being used to enforce things like compliance with national ID,'hate speech' laws that destroy the first amendment and such.(Just wait till you read my opinion on the worst case scenario next,what an evil hatemonger I am....)

Thats how these things tend to progress,and History bears witness to this fact.Governments that have been given the power to 'crack down on' undesirable populations within a society often then turn around and use their newly minted authority to the detriment of the entire populace.
This concept is best exemplified by understanding the poem "First They Came..." by Pastor Martin Niemöller .

“He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.” Thomas Paine

If they can get away with using such force because Americans are too quick to write of the liberty of crackheads,then they will escalate and justify the same use of force against dissenters of tyrannical government.

And then-the only solution will be self sacrifice.

We will have to accept the role of political martyrdom.

With the power and will of the state and the weight of its huge bureaucracies behind it,and barring actual offensive operations against it,defenders will be forced into the practically suicidal position of making it more than a 'job' for these thugs with badges and guns-they will have to accept sacrificing their lives to take a few government sanctioned criminals to the grave with them,they will have to make every SWAT thug have to ask himself (or herself)-

"If I go out and do this to my fellow Americans tonight,will I be the next to die".

Make them question the reality of ever collecting their pensions.

Indeed,it may have already come to this.
Free citizens do not have to tolerate abuses of authority,no matter who these citizens are.
As long as government refuses to respect inalienable rights and seeks to enforce victim-less crime laws by victimizing citizens with military force in order to deprive them unjustly of their lives and property,and in order to assert itself over us in an unlawful,unconstitutional manner-we have a sacred duty to fight back the best we can.

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law', because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual." Thomas Jefferson

I place my hope in the lawful process of the REPUBLIC ,in my fellow Americans' will and intelligence to determine the rightful place of government and the ever-louder demand that it be brought back to its proper Constitutionally proscribed role,but I am prepared and willing to die to resist tyranny.

Liberty or Death.

CATO Institute report

http://www.prisonplanet.com/militarized-swat-drug-raids-on-the-rise.html

Yeah, I know them all, and where they dwell. they taught me how to shoot. So well they would never think of an unannounced visit. I was one of those "troubled" kids that likes guns, doesn't have a good male role model, and a hot single Mom...
S

Quote of the year, from somebody named GeoffreyG:

Onward and upward,
airforce

An elderly Polk County, Georgia woman is in the hospital after another wrong-door raid.

Onward and upward,
airforce

Doesnt that make you feel just warm and fuzzy and safe and secure in your own home, how do you think they would react if we bust in there grandmothers or mothers doors with a dozen armed patriots, not to good if you ask me.I say buy grandma a 12 gauge and teach her to shoot through the door. COPS and JBT's are the real criminals and should be held accountable with prison sentences.SEMPER FI

Just so you know,I use to have a 98% approval rating for cops, but in the last 15 yrs or so it has dwindled to a big fat 0.I have absolutely no respect for the traitor hoar's period, There JUST NAZI PIGS they might start out with a real wish to serve but that disappears rather quickly, I'm telling you , You better not trust any of them,or you will pay dearly, They will turn on you in a minnesota minute, even family, and I could care less if I hurt some feelings. Oil and water DO NOT MIX

This was in Georgia, where the Kathryn Johnson and Jonathon Ayers cases--among others--occurred. They just don't learn, do they?

Onward and upward,
airforce

here is an email Radley Balko recently received:

Ironic, isn't it?

Onward and upward,
airforce

So you say all cops should be imprisoned?