It fills my heart with joy to see my tax dollars being spent in an intelligent and efficient manner.

and if I would have included link to story above post would make more sense.

http://www.examiner.com/x-1417-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2010m2d28-Why-is-ATF-seizing-toy-guns

Man I'm glad we got the ATF to protect us from toy guns...

They do this... because if you watch the movie Office Space-look at the nerdy, fat whimpering character, Melvin? That's us.

The BATFEces is the most unprofessional GOATFUCK of an agency I ever saw. Somebody is obviously desperate to justify their job. The BATFEces is the laughing stock of all federal and law enforcement agencies.

The best comments on this:

Remember, folks, we're talking about the people who classified a shoelace as a machine gun. Between that, this, and Olofson, I'm not sure what ISN'T a machine gun anymore.

Is someone trying to justify/protect their job? Looking for fodder for yearly performance reviews? Doesn't know what a toy is? Screwed up thinking the shipment was real guns and instead of looking foolish confiscated them anyway? Something is going on here beyond is visible on the surface.

Watching the ATF is like watching a circus, except all the animals at the ATF are retarded.

I think that might be some older news. I had other word that Crenshaw had been promoted and moved to Washington DC in the last couple months as was reported on one of the ATF whistleblower sites where they say Crenshaw was unfairly promoted.

The WE Tech M4, if you have ever handled one, is pretty amazing, and I hate to say, might be doable if you replace the entire upper and then remove the entire trigger pack, and then construct a new lower receiver filler piece (the Taiwan trigger pack requires a very thin wall lower, and is similar in construction to a G3 trigger pack), then re-drill everything to fit regular M16 fire control parts. Another option is a custom built variant of the McCormick trigger pack, which would involve a custom built trigger pack which puts the hammer in the right position to strike the firing pin on a regular M16 bolt carrier group. The thing is, the Taiwan lower is a bit "further along" than say, some of the 80% lowers you see on the market but as will be argued, while you may not be doing as much "cutting" to make it work with regular components, you do need to do a bunch of "filling in" to get the stuff to fit right, and even then it may not be any better than what could be made from scratch for less money, as it has a non-spec but usable buffer and stock system already attached. What I am not sure of is whether or not a regular M16 mag will lock into place on the WE tech M4, as the magwells might be different enough that things do line up with some versions of mags, or say, a 9mm magwell adapter that was modified, but not just slapping on a regular upper and then locking in regular M16 mags.

Then you have to look at some other cost issues. The We-Tech M4 and CQBR is just under $400 most places, which is well above the cost of an 80% lower, and well above what most people would spend on an unpapered "gray market" 100% lower from a private party seller, even in restricted states like California, where black market lowers tend to stick in the $250 range unless it is a rich guy who just wants one right away, then maybe $400, and that is for something that is plug and play, not something that has to be gutted and rebuilt like the WE tech M4.

The thing about converting Airsoft guns to fire live ammo is where you get into that gray area of when you have or have not actually constructed a live gun. A whole lot of airsoft rifles can be gutted out and then have a .22 rifle housed in what is left over. You can also see videos about that sort of thing on Youtube featuring Ruger 10/22 actions put inside Marui P90 and G36 rifles.

The thing about Crenshaw's statements about how "someone having this is gonna git trouble" is telling, and very similar to some threats given to me at a gun show by some Portland cops when I was selling some high grade airsoft guns for use as training tools (I also had live guns there). These guys think it is cool to pick on people who they figure they can have an excuse to make a problem for, but would lack the ability to actually shoot back. Sort of reminds me of a martial arts club in Lebanon (Oregon) a while back where they were practicing disarm and retention moves with CLEAR PLASTIC airsoft guns on a hot day in the alley behind the building, still on private property (not a commonly traveled alley, and still technically part of the mini-mall property). Cops rolled up and drew down on the people, claiming that it was a "gang fight". We are not talking about a "hood" type of place either, as it was nearly all white family people there, ages 12 to 50.

My guess is the guy is going to win his merchandise back in court, but the BATF will continue attacking the store because it is seen as a center for defacto militia training in the area.

Just looked at it on airsplat.com. Looks like it would be a pretty decent training tool, leagues better than my POS JG lol.

No, please! Don't shoot me with that toy gun! You can make it into a machine gun with a full auto AR-15 kit!

Batfaggots have already screwed with a military supplier, Spartan Arms I believe the name to be, so I imagine more than a few in the military have no love for the kitty stompers.

Airsoft... doesn't surprise me. Airsoft IS a good trainer for both marksmanship and close quarter tactics. Of course you can also expect some of the gov's motivation to pumping as much fear into people as possible, getting them used to submit to everything. Someday someone's gonna pull their card.

Yep. Them BATFags gonna be going after paintball here soon.

Update:

http://www.examiner.com/x-1417-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2010m3d9-Why-is-ATF-ducking-questions-about-toy-gun-seizure

LOL! This smells like the trading movie props for nikes in LA. Are not the BATF just tax men?

They are really stepping on their peckers this time. The news people in this are NOT being sympathetic to the BATFags. One of the .gov spokespeople effectively admitted they are not converting the guns to fire live ammo, but did the grab as part of a "public awareness issue".

IE, they wanted to play the intimidation game with the airsofters and come up with a good scare story for the public in order to justify their jobs.

I hope the BATFE gets sued. What a goatfuck.

I have done some checking around the net and this thing might be spreading. It seems that just about nobody previously listing the WE tech airsoft gas rifles has them in stock right now. They also make a pretty cool variant of the SCAR that I was considering buying and those are selling out too.

Wow, a run on "preban" airsoft...

Now guys we all know that airsoft bb's leave those little blood blisters that if left untreated usually heal on their own(unless u have hemophillia)lol they are really pushin it aint they

An interesting thread over at a website frequented by ATF agents has them considering Crenshaw to be an embarrassment to the agency. Interestingly, even the "whistleblower" guy says the guns should not be on the market and a more favorable strategy is to call it a child protection issue (you lose custody of your kids if you let them play airsoft).



I hate to break the news to everyone but this always was and always will be the Crenshaw we know. If he was a likeable or fair guy his mumbling and bumbling could almost be loveable but he's a nasty, vindicitive, above the law manager who's getting called out. The man you see on that video was selected as the ATF ASAC in Chicago, the SAC in Seattle, our AD for OPSPRO and again the SAC in Seattle. He's a goof. That's never been a secret. I remember Larry Ford and Crenshaw in their $5000 empty suits having their shoes shined in the public lobby of our office and looking down at all the rest of us with a "I got mine" attitude. He went back to Seattle to continue his relationship with his secretary. Is there anyone who doesn't know that? He was the individual that Melson, Carter and Hoover selected to be the one person to stand for integrity at ATF. What a mistake. In addition, he was in charge at IA when they conspired to let McLemore off the hook. Our management is the laughing stock of the federal government.

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 07:42 PM
This is the reason that ATF ends up being embarrassed because ATF does not know the difference between law abiding citizens and criminal intent. This is clearly a technical violation that ATF could work with the FFL to correct. While these firearms could be converted into the real thing, so can a heap of metal be converted into a firearm. Crenshaw tried to play off the magazine faux pas but you can still tell. I am sure the NRA is having a field day with this. :unsure: :blink:
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Posted 05 March 2010 - 10:39 AM
[quote name='Doc Holiday' date='04 March 2010 - 10:49 PM' timestamp='1267760986' post='289']
Yes embarrassing. Yes Kelvin Crenshaw


This is awful. I am becoming embarrassed to tell anyone I ever worked for ATF.

This dope is a SAC!!! What have we come to when a FD head goes on the news with a fiasco like this and then trys to justify it. Just say "The agency made a mistake". Also learn which way a magazine is inserted before you are taped on a news clip! How did this guy ever get to where he got? Actually, I know the answer to that because I was around in the 1990s.

Krenshaw should be put into some dark corner where he cannot embarass the organization any more.

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 10:49 PM
Yes embarrassing. Yes Kelvin Crenshaw should have voided his ability to represent ATF EVER for his abuses while in HQ recently and the allegations of his romantic adventures at tax payer expense. Yes he should have been demoted downward well past SAC in Wash. State "again" for covering for Vanessaq Mclemore and or whatever else he covered up.HOWEVER, those toys dont need to be out in the world ever. No they cant be readily converted as (probably Elener Loos' shop suggested this was a good idea). No it is not an effecient use of ATF resources and manpower pursuing toys. No it has not positively impacted reducing violent crime. And no Mr. Crenshaw should not be allowed to speak on behalf of our Bureau. Finally, NO we should not withold formal ATF determinations and findings from the public and legitimate business people. It gives the appearance we are hiding something. Guess what Mr. Crenshaw, there ARE hundreds if not thousands of real guns out there. Yes they should have been approached. My thinking is: maybe by the Child protective services or the consumer protection agencys. UNLESS OF COURSE YOU THINK THEY WERE BEING TAKEN INTO MEXICO FOR THE DRUG CARTELS.

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 10:30 PM
Is this what we have come to??? You can't tell me we don't have bigger fish to fry than this.

http://www.youtube.c...player_embedded

"HOWEVER those toys dont need to be out in the world ever".

Funny how they're only embarrassed by Crenshaw and not their organization's policies.

ATF: Marty McFly with a gun.

There is no way anyone could ever fire a live round of any caliber with an airsoft. The Feds don't like airsoft because some militias use airsoft as efective trainig tools inside of city limits with no noise. SWAT teams have been called out on men with airsoft rifles (LOL). There is no law against painting the orange muzzle black as soon as you buy an airsoft.

The lower will fit a real upper but it would require shims and someone who understand blueprints to be able to fit the fire control group. Someone with those skills could much more easily complete an "80%" lower. Correct me if im wrong but the high pressures reside in the upper and the quality of materials in construction of the lower are not as critical. I'm merely speaking in terms of being able to fire without blowing up in your face not reliability. They did build really nice replicas that happen to fire plastic BBs... The ATF is embarrassed as usual because they are clueless. It could be converted but it wouldn't be an ideal platform to build on and there are better ways to build an AR that require much less hassle and would result in a much higher quality end product. The company that makes these admits this. The only part that could be converted is the lower. But it simply is not worth it and is not easily done...

You are right, and the BATF whistleblower website has ATF agents basically saying the same thing. It is splitting hairs over whether or not the airsoft lower is equal to or less than an 80% unit, as the shims and custom parts put completion in a different category than the machining necessary on a blank. What most people agree on in every forum of well informed people is that converting one of the WE-Tech M4s to live fire is not cost effective, even on the black market in the US.

Interestingly in checking the net, all of the WE tech gas blowback airsoft guns are being bought up now in droves, even the models not particularly targeted by the feds.

You get the impression from that other agent's commentary about Crenshaw and the airsoft issue that they do want to go after the airsoft guns, but with a multi-agency approach which says letting your kid run around with something that looks like a real weapon is child endangerment, therefore sidestepping the whole technical issue anyway.

Here is an AR with the lower made from plastic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DUmwZ_Sd2s

This guy has experimented with wood as well with bad results but has been successful in getting them to fire. There is a thread about it on the weaponeer.net board... That said, if I had a milling machine and wanted to build an ar-lower I could get a forging (25 bucks) and some tools and whip up something to be proud of... I wonder if this could be built with some feeler gauges a drill and trigger set... No clue as I never saw one. 300 buxs + is what I think these airsofts go for. Add 600+ for a decent upper. Make take down and cleaning an even bigger pain in the ass... There would be no friggen point. I'm (having not actually seen one of these airsoft lowers) thinking it would not be overly difficult. Not even sure if it would be more or less than an 80%...

Well, I looked at a few today but the store owners refused to let me take pictures. The models on the airsoft stuff vary a lot, especially between the electric and gas blowback models. The issue is where you draw lines on what is "not that difficult", but what I can say conclusively is that it is NOT just a matter of swapping and installing parts. There are a lot of ways to skin a cat, and other more cost effective ways to make functional AR lowers.

Most cost effective for clandestine manufacture on any economy of scale is the polymer lowers molded around sheet metal skeletons. Cav-Arms goes with all plastic, but then their plastic is a strong thermoplastic that requires a lot of heat and specialized equipment to inject into the molds. You can make lowers with weaker lowere grade plastic if the stress points are reinforced with metal (sort of like the way "polymer" frame pistols are made).

Regardless there are better ways to "skin the cat"

if the airsoft rifle was cheaper I would post a report :p