AWRM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Did the Mexican Government Just Legitimize the Militias? #156945
01/28/2014 06:39 AM
01/28/2014 06:39 AM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 23,942
Tulsa
airforce Online content OP
Administrator
airforce  Online Content OP
Administrator
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 23,942
Tulsa
Or did it just find a way to take command and control of the militias?

Quote
January 27, 2014—The Self-Defense Groups that emerged in Michoacán signed an agreement today along with the federal and state government that will transform them into elements of the Rural Defense Corps, an existing organization under the control of the military. Rurales, groups of armed volunteers who were once used to keep peace in rural areas when security forces were unavailable, once existed between 1861 and 1914, during Mexico’s turbulent 19th century.

The signing achieved under the Agreement for the Federal Security Assistance of Michoacán (Acuerdo para el Apoyo Federal a la Seguridad de Michoacán), states that the government of the Republic and the state of Michoacán came to a “conviction of rebuilding peace and public order”. The Self-Defense Groups also agreed to provide a list of all of its members.

Alfredo Castillo Cervantes, commissioner for the security and integral development of Michoacán, said that the agreement, although it’s a first step, is critical in fulfilling the security strategy in the state.

Apart from Castillo Cervantes, Michoacán’s Governor Fausto Vallejo Figueroa and along with representatives from communities such as Churumuco de Morelos, Nueva Italia de Ruíz, La Huacana, Parácuaro, Tancítaro, Cualcomán de Vázquez Pallares, Aquila and Coahuayana de Hidalgo were present.

Also, the signing was witnessed by the president of Causa en Común (Common Cause) María Elena Morera de Galindo and the General Commissioner of the Federal Police, Enrique Galindo Ceballos.

Here are the eight points of the agreement reached between the governments and the Self-Defense Groups:


1. The Self-Defense Groups will be institutionalized by joining the Rural Defense Corps. The leaders of the Self-Defense Groups will present a list of all the names of its members, which will be validated with the formation of the respective documents, controlled by the SEDENA (Secretariat of National Defense). These bodies will be temporary and under the control of the authority pursuant of the applicable provisions.

2. For the protection of their communities, members of the Self-Defense Groups may form part of the Municipal Police provided they can complete the requirements of the law and have the joint signature of the City Council to be proposed for a membership of said police force.

3. The Self-Defense Groups have an obligation to register the weapons they currently posses to the SEDENA. In turn, the SEDENA must agree to provide them with the necessary tools for communication, transportation, and operation.

4. It is agreed that municipalities with conflict will conduct an audit of the use of public resources in accordance with applicable laws.

5. The rotation of Federal and Local Prosecutors will be established as well as the implementation of mobile prosecutor units.

6. The Commission of the Safety and Comprehensive Development of Michoacán will be committed in maintaining constant communication with municipal authorities in the area to offer support pursuant to the authority of said Commission.

7. The necessary arrangements will be made in the state of Michoacán, without having to leave the state, for the cases of the people who were arrested for carrying a gun and for those who are on bail pending trial.

8. In the case of the municipal and state public officials who have criminal or administrative sanctions, and that are fully proven, will have the full extent of the law applied to them.
I don't know. I'm more than a little leery of this agreement. What do you folks think?

Onward and upward,
airforce

Re: Did the Mexican Government Just Legitimize the Militias? #156946
01/28/2014 08:54 AM
01/28/2014 08:54 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 6,705
Western States
Breacher Offline
Moderator
Breacher  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 6,705
Western States
Sounds like what those groups were asking for. They were pushing for official recognition on acceptable terms pretty early on. There are a lot of historic precedents for that both in Mexico and other countries.

The weapons registration condition is the expected line from any government play book, selective compliance is the result out of the common sense play book, and I am sure the Rurales know how to play that one out.


Life liberty, and the pursuit of those who threaten them.

Trump: not the president America needs, but the president America deserves.
Re: Did the Mexican Government Just Legitimize the Militias? #156947
01/28/2014 11:17 AM
01/28/2014 11:17 AM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 23,942
Tulsa
airforce Online content OP
Administrator
airforce  Online Content OP
Administrator
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 23,942
Tulsa
The weapons registration is troublesome, but not unexpected. What really bothers me though is the autodefensas having to turn over a list of their members. That's a list I'm sure the cartels would like to get their hands on and, given the corruption in the Mexican government, I have little doubt they will.

On the plus side, this is the first article I've seen where the groups were referred to as "Self Defense Groups," which they are, rather than "vigilantes," a subtle derogatory term.

Onward and upward,
airforce

Re: Did the Mexican Government Just Legitimize the Militias? #156948
01/28/2014 12:05 PM
01/28/2014 12:05 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,746
A 059 Btn 16 FF MSC
ConSigCor Online content
Senior Member
ConSigCor  Online Content
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,746
A 059 Btn 16 FF MSC
They're being absorbed because they were effective. Now they'll be neutered and the cartel will start making their way down that list.


"The time for war has not yet come, but it will come and that soon, and when it does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard." Gen. T.J. Jackson, March 1861
Re: Did the Mexican Government Just Legitimize the Militias? #156949
01/28/2014 03:21 PM
01/28/2014 03:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,317
Central Virginia; VIM
S
SBL Offline
Senior Member
SBL  Offline
Senior Member
S
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,317
Central Virginia; VIM
They gave the Mexican government a list of their members AND a list of who has what guns!?

I hope they fabricated that list, because they may as well have handed it straight over to the cartel itself.

Muy estupido!


On equipment: You get what you inspect, not what you expect.
On training: Our drills are bloodless battles so that our battles are bloody drills.
On tactics: Cheating just means you're serious about winning.
Re: Did the Mexican Government Just Legitimize the Militias? #156950
01/28/2014 05:16 PM
01/28/2014 05:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 92
Washington
S
sempergumby Offline
Junior Member
sempergumby  Offline
Junior Member
S
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 92
Washington
Opsec should take presedence over any agreements and lists. I would hope members here are learning from this.


Always flexible
Re: Did the Mexican Government Just Legitimize the Militias? #156951
01/29/2014 04:13 AM
01/29/2014 04:13 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,151
D 057 Btn 47 FF
T
The Greywolf Offline
Senior Member
The Greywolf  Offline
Senior Member
T
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,151
D 057 Btn 47 FF
Now they have ended what ever good they were able to do...Their gone ..


I believe in absolute Freedom, as little interference from any government as possible...And I'll fight any man trying to take that away from me.

Jimmy Greywolf
Re: Did the Mexican Government Just Legitimize the Militias? #156952
01/29/2014 04:47 AM
01/29/2014 04:47 AM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 23,942
Tulsa
airforce Online content OP
Administrator
airforce  Online Content OP
Administrator
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 23,942
Tulsa
I don't like this agreement, because I can see a zillion things that can go wrong. But you know, these guys obviously are not stupid, and they have a long history of being some pretty tough hombres.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

I just don't think they would have given up everything they've gained so easily. It's possible there's more to this agreement than what was in the article. I sure hope so.

Onward and upward,
airforce

Re: Did the Mexican Government Just Legitimize the Militias? #156953
01/29/2014 09:38 AM
01/29/2014 09:38 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 6,705
Western States
Breacher Offline
Moderator
Breacher  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 6,705
Western States
Oh I know, but it really gets complex with those types of political issues and with the video documentary that came out of there, I think it was Shane Smith at Vice Media, it really looked like this thing in Mexico has been a Jesuit run operation.

The Jesuits know how to play hard core, but this is not the 1600s either. The Bishop running the thing is a wee bit of a rogue too. If a drunken lout like Shane Smith could get to him, the Mex government could too.

The way you deal with those sorts of diplomatic situations will vary a lot, and in those countries people know how to play. I went through a class on it in the 1980s that was taught by some SF and CIA people who had experience in Afghanistan. A lot of times the official guy in charge is just a figurehead. One of the SF guys figured out after a few days that the "bodyguard" who met them right after they were dropped in and stuck with them the entire time was the actual tribal military commander. When they were introduced to the "subchiefs" and "leader", the "bodyguard" would position himself behind the SF guy who was doing the talking, and then would use subtle hand signals and facial expressions to indicate what he wanted the fake "chief" to say.

As for us dealing with our government. I think that depends. I take my clue from how the various diplomatic agencies do it. They have declared agents and officials, and then the "illegal operatives". What you can't necessarily do though is get by for very long with one group working for one set of policies and another group working for an opposing set of policies.

I would also point out that while criminal groups in Mexico are usually called "drug cartels", it is often not so much the "drug business" that ticks everyone off, it is the constant robbery, murder, and thugging which goes along with the quality of people who end up controlling those businesses.


Life liberty, and the pursuit of those who threaten them.

Trump: not the president America needs, but the president America deserves.
Re: Did the Mexican Government Just Legitimize the Militias? #156954
01/29/2014 06:28 PM
01/29/2014 06:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 23,942
Tulsa
airforce Online content OP
Administrator
airforce  Online Content OP
Administrator
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 23,942
Tulsa
Quote
Originally posted by Breacher:
I would also point out that while criminal groups in Mexico are usually called "drug cartels", it is often not so much the "drug business" that ticks everyone off, it is the constant robbery, murder, and thugging which goes along with the quality of people who end up controlling those businesses.
That's why the Crips, Bloods, Latin Kings and Aryan Brotherhood aren't more powerful than they are. If they would simply concentrate on their own businesses, they'd be a lot better off. But like the Chicago mobsters of 90 years ago, they just can't seem to do that.

Onward and upward,
airforce

Re: Did the Mexican Government Just Legitimize the Militias? #156955
01/30/2014 10:48 AM
01/30/2014 10:48 AM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 23,942
Tulsa
airforce Online content OP
Administrator
airforce  Online Content OP
Administrator
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 23,942
Tulsa
CBS News, of course, is still calling them "vigilantes." What did you expect? But even they have to agree these groups are doing good.

Quote
"Self-defense" groups confronting a drug cartel in the western state of Michoacan have agreed to join government law enforcement forces after months of firefights with gang members, many times as federal police and troops stood by.

The government announced Monday that it had reached a deal with vigilante leaders to incorporate the armed civilian groups into old and largely forgotten quasi-military units called the Rural Defense Corps. Vigilante groups estimate their numbers at 20,000 men under arms.

"The self-defense forces will become institutionalized, when they are integrated into the Rural Defense Corps," the Interior Department said in a statement.

Vigilante groups began springing up almost a year ago against the Knights Templar cartel, which ruled many parts of Michoacan with an iron fist, demanding extortion payments from businesses, farmers and workers. The civilian forces have gained ground in recent months, seizing a number of towns from the gang, sometimes after intense gunbattles.

The rise in fighting proved an embarrassment for President Enrique Pena Nieto, drawing criticism that the administration brought on the rise of the armed groups by failing to stop the cartel's abuses, and the government hopes the agreement will help restore order and get it back in control.

More federal police and soldiers were dispatched to the troubled region after a particularly violent weekend early in January, but the vigilantes have refused to lay down their guns and return home until all of the cartel's major leaders are arrested. Officials announced that one of the cartel's top four leaders was captured early Monday.

Even before the new agreement, police and soldiers already largely tolerated, and in some cases even worked with, the vigilantes, many of whom are armed with assault rifles that civilians are not allowed to carry.

Vigilante leaders will have to submit a list of their members to the Defense Department, and the army will apparently oversee the groups, which the government said "will be temporary." They will be allowed to keep their weapons as long as they register them with the army.

The military will give the groups "all the means necessary for communications, operations and movement," according to the agreement.

Vigilante leaders, who include farmers, ranchers and some professionals, met to discuss the agreement, but it was not yet clear for them how it would work. It wasn't known if the army would offer anyone salaries....
Onward and upward,
airforce

Re: Did the Mexican Government Just Legitimize the Militias? #156956
05/10/2014 05:55 AM
05/10/2014 05:55 AM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 23,942
Tulsa
airforce Online content OP
Administrator
airforce  Online Content OP
Administrator
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 23,942
Tulsa
Mexican militias resist government "legalization." And the Associated Press is still calling them "vigilantes." Sigh.

Quote
APATZINGAN, Mexico (AP) — Mexico's government plans on Saturday to begin demobilizing a vigilante movement of assault rifle-wielding ranchers and farmers that formed in the western state of Michoacan and succeeded in largely expelling the Knights Templar cartel when state and local authorities couldn't.

The ceremony in the town of Tepalcatepec, where the movement began in February 2013, will involve the registration of thousands of guns by the federal government and an agreement that the so-called "self-defense" groups will either join a new official rural police force or return to their normal lives and acts as voluntary reserves when called on.

The government will go town by town to organize and recruit the new rural forces.

"This is a process of giving legal standing to the self-defense forces," said vigilante leader Estanislao Beltran.

But tension remained on Friday in the coastal part of the state outside the port of Lazaro Cardenas, where other "self-defense" groups plan to continue as they are, defending their territory without registering their arms. Vigilantes against the demobilization have set up roadblocks in the coastal town of Caleta.

"We don't want them to come, we don't recognize them," vigilante Melquir Sauceda said of the government and the new rural police forces. "Here we can maintain our own security. We don't need anyone bringing it from outside."


With Saturday's ceremony, a federal commissioner now in charge of the violence-plagued state hopes to end the "wild west" chapter of the movement, in which civilians built roadblocks and battled cartel members for towns in the rich farming area called the "Tierra Caliente," or "Hot Land." (...)
Onward and upward,
airforce

Re: Did the Mexican Government Just Legitimize the Militias? #156957
05/30/2014 03:14 PM
05/30/2014 03:14 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 150
PA
D
Dsparil Offline
Senior Member
Dsparil  Offline
Senior Member
D
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 150
PA
In other words, they just became part of the cartels without realizing it.

Re: Did the Mexican Government Just Legitimize the Militias? #156958
05/30/2014 07:36 PM
05/30/2014 07:36 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 6,705
Western States
Breacher Offline
Moderator
Breacher  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 6,705
Western States
Nuances in their constitution dictate the legitimacy of such groups along with the interpretations of a right to be secure. Apparently it was in response to the colonial period where a peasant class was not allowed any right or means of security or protection for any purpose, they had to pay the next class up for their protection.

The Mexican version of RKBA translates to the people having the right to keep guns in their homes, but now "Arms" which the language of their constitution uses to differentiate military from civillian grade weapons, but interpretations are dictated by their equivalent of the BATF, which is run by their Army, which is in alliance with our BATF and by extension and web of intrigue, some but not all of the cartels.

The townspeople on the other hand are entirely within their rights to say that semiauto Ar15s or AKs, which are not precisely in military configuration are allowed under their constitution. Their government on the other hand, only wants to allow for non-military calibers and really basic Elmer Fudd profile long guns.


Life liberty, and the pursuit of those who threaten them.

Trump: not the president America needs, but the president America deserves.

.
©>
©All information posted on this site is the private property of the individual author and AWRM.net and may not be reproduced without permission. © 2001-2020 AWRM.net All Rights Reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1