What would be the best inexpensive way to build an off the grid electrical system for a small home.

Im planning on:
6 250Watt Solar panels + charge controller.
20 100 AH batteries.
1 7000 Watt Diesel Generator that will be ran atleast 2 times a week for 5 to 7 hours

any suggestions and advice?

I run 4 - 85 watt pannels, 2 - 10 amp chargers on 5 deep cycle Batteries with an 2000 watt inverter, runs fridge, box freezer and my 12 volt water system no problem. Also have an 3000 watt Gen. Hooking up CB base to solar also.Got pannels with hardware and charge controllers- cables at UL Solar e-bey

What is the sq ft of your house and what else are you planning on running of of the systems, WAFalcon and D308cat.

750 SQ feet.

Lights LED
Ham Radio
12 V pump part time
LCD TV part time
Radio Part time

Washer 2 times a week
Dryer motor only on gas dryer

My solar is an emergency back up,Keep food cold, water flowing and communication up,essentials only, not comfort. Home is only 2 brm., 800 sq ft.,System Not tied to pannel, comes through wall next to back door ,have double Recepticals so no cords through the windows, when power go's down I just run cords from recept. to appliance. My water is direct tied to 12volt via fused switch,city water runs through 300 gal emergency tank to RV pump and can switch from direct city preasure to tank via manifold. I think I am going to double my water storage capacity.I run the water system 2 or 3 days a week to keep water fresh.I am going to direct tie to fridge & freezer taking them off gridd , just haven't felt like crawling under my home yet.

That should be plenty, out here we run wind as supplement, you should think about a small wind generator.

I run a 460w worth of panels at my backup place, but something in the inverter or fridge conflicted and it roasted the compressor on the fridge and it is not that old. I have backup stuff that I have yet to assemble and am looking at around 2KW worth of panels ought to get a small place going OK.

Wind is sort of a bonus thing unless you have consistent wind. I found a wind turbine I want to try out someday, but it is not a high priority right now. I am thinking two 600w wind turbines ought to do a place pretty good.

That 20 batteries is a pretty big battery bank. I think you could run several days between generator charges, and the solar/wind might keep them up entirely depending on the weather.

You can always scale up to more panels if it seems like what you have is not enough.

yea we get plenty wind here... 460w? It could be just not enough wattage and storage, to keep up with the needs and fridges are notorious for burning out compressors that are under powered. What was the amount of wattage and amps used by the fridge... Is the fridge a newer one with circuit board controls, famous for surges and drops burning out boards.

Remember not only do you have to have more than the normal pull of wattage and amps, you need enough for start up of the compressor..

Which will draw well above normal running wattage and amps.

two 600's will do nicely, but figure your total wattage and amp usage.

I would rather have more then needed then the other way.

I don't know what kinda fridge you were running,but it sounds like you were under powered for the fridge. Mine between 54 and 62.5 amps at start up and it pulls on start up about 800 watts. It could be something else though.

All of you guys must remember that your total usage of each item you plug in, must be accounted for in you system.

or at least you must plug and unplug to remain below maximum usage.

I try to never pull much energy so much that draining the batteries faster then they can recharge.

If your using it as just back up and not complete smaller wattage is all you need, just enough to run emergency food and water supplies. but you still have to take start up draw into consideration. Some items don't like drops in power

The fridge was rated to only use 85 watts. I run 400 amps worth of top quality deep cycle batteries. Best of the best, powersonic sealed system UPS batteries I got from a hospital surplus equipment dealer when they were barely two years old. Running out of power is not the issue any more.

I would go with a refrigerator that runs on propane if I already had a propane tank to run a stove on or get a refrigerator that runs on kerosene if I had no propane. The good thing about propane is that it never spoils like gasoline and diesel. Here http://www.bensdiscountsupply.com/servelrefrigerator.aspx the Servel propane or kerosene refrigerators are $1,296.00 for propane or $1,789.00 kerosene so they are quite expensive but in a grid down collapse it might be worth it. You might be able to salvage a propane refrigerator out of a junked RV.

I had a propane fridge in another camper a while back and it seemed to eat up the bottle like crazy. It was an older rig though. The propane burning element kept the inside from freezing which was nice, sort of, but never really warmed the place like just running the stove did.

I think I posted elsewhere though about a thing I witnessed on the freeway once, where an older camper was on the side of the road with a little fire in it. By the time I pulled over, got my fire extinguisher out and got out of my car, the whole thing was engulfed in flames. The people had bailed out of the thing, but had they been sleeping instead of driving, I think they could have been roasted. So after that, I never wanted to run propane in a camper and decided that whenever I got a bigger one in the future, my dream camper would be set up all electric.

My recent one is not going to be my final camper, it is just my alternate home rig more or less temporarily if SHTF in the short term. I want to upgrade to something bigger and better in the next year or so and move into it and start doing some traveling. I just missed a good deal on a school bus for conversion but you know how that goes, when the great deals come along, I have no money, when I have a wad of cash, there are no really good deals around.

Over the course of the last six months I got what I thought has been some pretty good deals on solar panels, so I bought a bunch in anticipation of whatever I end up with and figure that I can sell them on local Craigslist at a modest profit to update and expand my inventory when I can. I have them in several sizes so I can cover a roof by working around whatever other stuff is on the roof of a camper.

or do like the Amish and use a kerosene powered fridge... It would be wise at least to look at the Amish's interesting ways of coping without the grid...
I looked at them, they aren't cheap, but most are American made and well made at that.

greywolf

A fridge is a power hog. I'm trying to stay away from one in my planning. Powdered milk, butter, and shortening, eggs etc.

honeyvillegrains.com and beprepared.com

If you stop by Harbor Freight Stores if you got them in your area they carry a small Solar set for an RV. The panel is prewired and has a plug to connect it to the batteries. ($250.00). It comes with a 1kW inverter. If you get two sets of deep well 12V batteries and put them in parallel they also sell a 1600W inverter and that will run a college Dorm sized refrigerator ($99.00) and your commo.
If you back it up with a handmade wind generator from a Delco Reamey 12V alternator. with some split 4" PVC cut into three slices for blades. The reason for Delco reamey is the Diodes can be removed to the Battery end with 4 bolts. Mount it on a pole and let er rip. If you hang a hanky parachute on the back it will keep it pointing the right way.
remember!
All solar and wind power is for is to charge your batteries to run your inverters which actually provide the AC for your stuff.
Hell! a bike with the back wheel removed and the chain around an alternator will do the job when it is dark and no wind.

Economically though, the fridge is your number one way of preserving food on the mid-term, and the freezer is pretty decent for long term.

The deal is convenience while the whole socio-economic system is still running. I just polished off a big pot of stew I made a few days ago, kept in the fridge during the interim. It would have simply gone bad at some point around the second day without the fridge. Then there is the batch of salted salmon I have going in the fridge now, a variation of Lox, you need a fridge in order to make it come out right.

My point on "survival living" is to be as comfortable and modern as possible, while not being dependent on the grid, not live caveman or pioneer style because it seems like a cool symbolic gesture.

Here's an article you should take a look at.

http://www.survivalblog.com/2012/07/living-with-photovoltaic-power-by-dp.html

Very good article, it reads like someone has been in my trailer and then did an article on their own perspective.

On figuring out how many panels and batteries you need, its about like ammo, the more the merrier. Panels took a little spike in price a few months ago, and are coming back down some say only temporarily since some tariffs went up. I think I am going to be settling out somewhere in the 2KW range for solar, but I need to do some more experiments on wiring the systems to see if it is possible to run dual inverters and make 220v.

I don't know if it is a battery issue or power production issue, but I am not yet at the point of being able to reliably run larger power tools on my 460w system that has 400AH worth of battery storage and a 2KW pure sine wave inverter. Likewise, I already have the bread machine as mentioned in the article and I have yet to test it. Tests with the microwave have been less than encouraging, but it may be an issue with the older microwave and not the power system.

I have several panels sitting in boxes that are waiting to go on other projects and at least one of those is going to be a semi-portable array that gets carried inside a vehicle or trailer then gets set up at the location. It is never as portable or easy to camouflage as a generator, but is pretty maintenance free once it is set up and does not make any noise or require any fuel.

I am going for overkill on power production in part to be able to run a workshop at a remote location as my contribution to whichever survival retreat places I hook up with if SHTF/WROL, but then that is stuff for making me useful enough that nobody says "thanks for your shit now get the fuck out". So the workshop thing, yeah, it's a lot of stuff, but then there gets to be familiarity with the stuff and the skills/experience on using it.

The way I see it, the mobile but landless survivor is bringing a lot to the table with a mobile power production system that can augment whatever is at someone's retreat property, or even rehabilitate an abandoned property that your group just takes over when the grid goes down.

A lot of country properties are already set up with decent wells and septic systems, small farm irrigation, all of that, but would be abandoned if the people could not get the places to work as off grid retreats. You would likely be able to take those locations over very cheaply in a cash only real estate market.

You loose a lot of electricity when you convert from DC to AC. Unless I was running a generator I would not mess with any kind of DC to AC inverter at all. If you look you can find anything you want to run that will run on direct current, fans, AC, lights, computers, TVs, DVDs, refrigerators, well pumps, etc. We all are too dependent on electricity. We all need to look at how the Amish gets by with no electricity and how everyone got by without any electricity in the 1800's and start going to bed early enough to be up by daybreak. We all need to be ready for the OPFOR to strike at dawn.

I am investing heavily in solar in order to succeed in that critical recovery period on the tail end of a collapse where the economy is recovering, but those who can recover faster and operate more normally sooner will be a lot better off and be in a better position to help others, and thus gain more political credibility.

Also realize, that going into a collapse scenario gradually means that the guys who are more capable of making money going in can last longer before it gets bad for them. Just this last weekend I was using a lot of my survival gear and tools on a downtown city job working for an international corporation, and although I was working with people "worth more" than me, the thing is my resources became critical for the job, even when better workers were let go because those guys had been making good money in the past but not thinking forward to the point where they might have to strike forth on their own without a "boss" taking care of the contracts and deals. I came out of the deal far enough ahead that I am seriously considering adding another half KW worth of panels to my inventory by tomorrow afternoon.

You cannot economically compete these days in the contractor/handyman world without power tools. I have a few turn of the century manual type tools but they are entirely non-competitive on any jobsite I go to. Yes you can build a house with the old school stuff, just it will take forever. My solar powered pioneer trailer setup/mobile workshop is nearing the next stage as I now own pretty much most of it, just have to get everything put together and working, then tested and refined, then hopefully at some point duplicated or added to.

Thing is, I am making money NOW with no regular job, odd hours, spotty health and declining physical fitness with longer recovery times between workouts. I spent six months downtime this year with a bad back. I have been recovering, sort of, but the road to getting back in shape will be long, and hopefully I don't get another pulled muscle doing it which puts me down another few months.

In theory, and in the not-so distant future, I should be able to live and work on the road and employ a couple guys at a respectable wage at least part time and not be so useless myself. The key to all of that though is being able to get things accomplished with modern power tools quickly enough to be efficient and profitable, and with zero dependance on grid power. That saves me a lot of money in shop space rent alone. I am also able to open up markets for my work where regular contractors take a look at it and figure that it cannot be cost effective, mainly because they usually don't care to be set up for off grid jobsites without using a generator which will be burning around $20 in gas per day.

Again, for me, the game is to do this with no significant decline in standard of living. The modern standard of living means having power, temperature controlled running water, easy cooking, modern food storage, regular bathroom and a safe place to sleep. It means the full suite of electronic communication and efficient reliable self directed transportation (meaning vehicle ownership, not riding the bus or bumming).

I am also not aiming at "bugging out" but being able to fully do an orderly evacuation/relocation with all assets and economic sustainability intact on 28 days notice to or from anywhere in the country.

Being able to provide a comfortable level of electrical power, for me, is an important part of that plan, and the more power the more capable I will be, and the lower ongoing cost of that power means a lower variable expense rate range. Even with relatively high initial cost, once the stuff is bought, it is bought. That's $30-$50 per month in electricity I don't have to pay for, but more importantly, it opens up locations which otherwise would not be tenable. Those locations are what tend to be much lower cost.

when you think solar the other half of your brain should add in "Home made wind power".
You can make every part of wind power in your garage.
Get some 3 1/2 to 4 inch PVC. Cut it vertically in a spiral. Drill two holes in the thin end.
Get an old Delco Alternator (Delco because the diodes come out with a screw driver)
Mount the alternator to a vertical pole by the mount bracket. Pull the pully and drill holes for the blades, and reattach. Bolt the blades on and raise the pole with two A/C wires (outside type extension cord) connected to the Diode leads.
Raise the mast and reattach the diode leads end to the terminals of a 12V battery. The charge begins when the wind blows. You can also add a tail piece to keep it pointed into the wind or turn it by hand.
Width of the props will be about 8' across.
Makes charge when the sun don't shine.
If you mount the alternator on a table behind a bicycle it will also charge when you peddle.
Just some thoughts to keep the radio when the sun is down.

Wind power gives more power than solar for the money, but then that depends on how windy a place is too. I can scale up a solar power system in order to get more sunlight converted to electricity but I can't make more wind if there is not much there to work with in the first place.

My suggestion would be about 4 small fold down (keeps the Grass Nazi's away) wind generators to help do some charging in the evenings and on stormy days.
Solar is easier to maintain, but don't work at night. So in crunch times you either get a bycycle and a generator or turn it all off, or go wind.
Where I ive I get an early morning breeze and a after dark rain storm. Both will work in a wind generator.

I really doesn't take a lot of wind to operate a wind generator..

The slightest breeze, you look up and your making power..

It does take frequent wind though....

So wind solar combo is a nice way to go...

Wells

I have a 220' deep water well, and a wind pump that pulls the water to the surface, and into a 10,000 gallon tank...

Less deep your well.... The smaller the wind pump needed...

So wind is pretty versatile for many uses..

Hell, find the grind stones, and you can make your own mill powered by wind...

It is up to what you can imagine and rig up...

Look,

if your not worried about being 100% set up to start, go with a tank and wind or solar water pump or combo....

Have a root cellar at least down 8' if it is warm where you live..

Mine had to be 12 feet to maintain 50 degrees 40 degrees in the winter..

In the summer the lower shelves in the cellar are cooler so I put things needing to stay cooler lower... In the winter that reverses, so I move the veggies that need to be cooler, higher on the shelves..

That will handle the veggies and fruits

Have a wood stove that has the capability to cook on... so if you don't have propane or natural gas, you can still heat and cook...

Be sure to can every food you can..pressure cooker or bath...

Don't can meat by bath type.

Go with a generator for emergencies,and small solar system to charge batteries for fridge or freezer..

if you don't need lights, use oil lamps to start.

please have proper fire extinguishers.

Make the system, so you can add as you go... Unless like me you think there is not much time left..

Remember, you can start off more primitive and add luxuries to the system, as you raise the money....


PS... raise the money as fast as possible.


Solar panels can be set up to add more as you go..

I would recommend you get as large of a wind generator, as you can foresee needing..



PSS... there are some cool primitive food cooling and storage methods, such as the two pot system..Check youtube for Ideas, I found several there..

As far as electricity goes..... You can run just the essentials, and add more panels, batteries, and wind chargers as needed.

Greywolf

sorry double post

There are some off the grid homes around here.One of my friends is totally self sufficient.They have an entire module (15ft container) that controls and stores the power produced by the solar panels.It wasn't cheap to start,but now after 15 years it has more then payed for it's self.And it is completely mobile.Just load it the panels and put the control module on a flatbed and your good to go.

I am not making progress on my system as quickly as I would like, but I have most of it here now. That is with no wind power since the wind power equipment requires different charge controllers.

Part of the issue is that solar can be purchased in $100 to $200 increments, so as I get extra cash, I buy solar power system components at about that rate. Wind power kits require the purchase to be in around $450 increments. That makes scaling a system up or down a bit more tricky.

The other thing with solar is that I make use of roof space on trailers that is otherwise not being used. Once the solar stuff is mounted, its done, no getting it out to set up once I park somewhere, but then there is a limit to how much power someone can make in those small square footage areas, so a real retreat ready system would be more like what Walfred's associates have. It has to include stuff that gets taken out ans set up somehow.

One survival structure option some people are looking at on youtube is knock down buildings. These are panelized construction buildings which are designed as prefabricated and take a half day or so to set up or break down. It is not majorly difficult to set them up with solar panels that go on roof sections.

The idea on all of this off grid power is not so much SHTF/WROL having power in the middle of the big city when nobody else has it but obviously that is one of the benefits in the "what if" scenario, but in normal times, it allows you to use locations which are normally much less costly due to lacking regular utilities.

In the food cart business here in Portland, that means the difference between a $50-$100 per month location in a parking lot vs a $350-$600 per month location with power and or water. Those locations normally used for the "food carts" which are usually a converted trailer of some sort and the main reason this place is getting to be a culinary destination for tourists. We have gourmet food from street vendors all over the place at prices roughly comparable to fast food joints, which just are not opening new stores very often at all in Portland proper. That's just one sort of business.

Another business that some people used to do along the Oregon coast (but I had not seen them for a long time0 was they would go and set up in large empty parking lots at strategic locations with what was pretty close to the same stuff you would see in a Harbor Freight store. Roughly the same prices too, but they were setting up in communities where shipping costs otherwise nail the consumers pretty hard, not to mention the convenience issue of being nearby. Someone running a business like that with an off grid living arrangement then has the option of setting up in empty lots for very little money as opposed to needing to rent houses, apartments or commercial retail space at higher rates, yet with off grid power systems they can live relatively comfortably.

Remember for the younger family types, we want to promote the lifestyles which are less dependent on "the system" to survive. Promoting self sufficiency and actually providing the resources for it.