One of the most popular arguments against open immigration is that illegal immigrants use more government services than native-born citizens, and thus are a drain on taxpayers. Even Ron Paul used this argument against open borders, saying that open borders and a welfare state were incompatible. But a new study by the Cato Institute , using the latest census data, is throwing some cold water on that theory. According to the study:

As illegal immigrants move into the lower class, lower-class native born move into the middle class . Cheaper goods and services due to cheaper labor costs benefit all Americans. The native Americans no longer have to do the menial labor the foreign-born do, and their native language and other skills gain a better premium in the job market. Thus, native-born workers then consume less welfare and other government services, too.

So, rather than building a fifty-foot fence along the border patrolled by drones, we should let them in.

I realize this is the least popular of my free market anarchist positions, and I predict this will garner exactly zero support here at AWRM. So, set your phasers to "stun" and fire away.

Onward and upward,
airforce

I don't disagree I've worked with illegals and legals. Most were hard workers and stand up guys. Some of the illegals never used welfare and sent money home to go back and have a better life. Some of the legals were guys who joined the US Army for citizenship and were of better character then native born Americans.

What happened to give us your poor and hungry masses yerning to be free?

Wow. I could never even get my own mother to agree with me on this one. Are you sure you're not one of those wild-eyed, long-haired, pot-smoking, gun-totin' anarchists?

Seriously, I've been saying for years that Mexicans, and Hispanics in general, should be our natural allies. They are hard-working, predominantly Catholic and socially conservative, and they've seen first hand the evils of socialism, gun bans, and the War on Drugs. But, inexplicably, the Patriot movement and the GOP seem to be doing their best to drive them to the Democrats. Romney made no effort to campaign for their votes, and you saw the results.

Their only effort to get the Hispanic vote seems to be to advance Marco Rubio for a 2016 run. Yeah, that'll get their vote. :rolleyes:

Onward and upward,
airforce

Phaser set on stun. @#$%^&*

If history has taught us one thing, uncontrolled immigration changes cultures rapidly. I don't feel like I live in the same country of 40 years ago. Look at the UK and France as other examples.

While I am very much in favor of immigration where 3 of my 4 grandparents were immigrants, I think it best to manage it such that we have a melting pot with common language and beliefs, instead of harlems of a single ethnic, language and culture.

Lets think this out.
If Jose' can't get a job because no patriotic american is going to hire him unless he takes that first step and swears to be a good american citizen.
Ha! Jose' gets the job first because the A@#$H$ who owns the company can take out taxes on him and not submit thew, take out SSI on them and not submit it, and take out FICA and not submit it. Jose' don't know so he assumes he is getting a good job for a good price and that nice man is even cashing his check for him so he don't need a bank account.
That should all end on 15 April 2013. The new Obama Care checks and balances will start putting the Patriotic American in jail for fraud around September.
The Illegal immigrant issue is a smoke screen to keep us from seeing the old man behind the curtain. Just as is the 2nd Amendment pushes.
Look at todays Dow and NASDAQ and S&P dropped like a soviet meteor. The bankers are pulling all the income they can shove in their satchels and running for the border.
Times is up!

So, if the illegible person that is NOT supposed to be here, is taking advantage of ANY government service, whether local, state, or fed, this act is NOT considered stealing?? Come on, man!! I (and many other US citizens) are paying for these same services & not using them at this time; but hoping that those services will be there when I do need them. I do not care how nice & friendly these thieves are; there is a LEGAL & PROPER way to be a citizen, so send them back & follow protocol. My great-grand parents did, so can others. Immigration reform, like gun control, is becoming a heated topic, so this is as calm as I can be.

That's one of the problems with the current system. There is no "legal and proper way" to get a work visa. Technically, the waiting list is years long; but in actuality, the waiting list is forever, unless you have the money to bribe government officials. Everything else in Mexico is corrupt, why wouldn't emigation be the same?

Being a free market anarchist, I would obviously rather there were no "government services" (that's an oxymoron, like "good lawyer") for people to take advantage of. But there are, and it doesn't look like they're going away soon. But if anyone is abusing those "government services," the data shows that it isn't illegal immigrants.

Onward and upward,
airforce

Again this is were I agree with airforce, and I'm a bit of an anarchist BTW. If Jose will work and John wants to collect SSI so he can do nothing I say keep Jose and send John to Mexico...

Fact is we could do like the South Koreans, they have English teachers from English speaking countries, Russian factory workers and almost all South Koreans go to college for business management, accounting, legal professions or to be doctors.

They don't have Social Security or SSI its work and save. We need to cut back on social services and start teaching people to be responsible.

You have to realize that an Anarchist is simply an American who does not want to pay or use services that are neither needed or wanted by anyone except the elected felons who call for them.
When the people begin to realize that if there was no welfare then every home in America would have a garden in the back yard and everyone with two arms, two legs and average mental ability would be working for or hiring someone.
If every Illegal Alien ( Mexican, Haitian, Chinese, Canadian, Arab, etc) found that the free lunch was over they would be doing the same and no one would care.
If there was no health care Insurance then all Doctors would make house calls in a effort to pay their bills.
It is the Free Stuff that makes us slaves!

Let me state a few things.

I don't give a rat's arse how hard the stinking illegals work, I don't care how corrupt the Mexican Government is, they are still illegal and they should be forced to return to Mexico or whatever part of the Third World or any other part of the World for that matter, they come from. Then they can apply to legally immigrate to MY COUNTRY.

And if I had my way I would stop 90% or more of even legal immigration.

They do not belong here, just by being here makes them Criminals and they should be treated as Criminals.

airforce and everyone else who believes the illegal scum should be permitted to stay in MY COUNTRY, what if you and your family took a six month vacation to Florida and when you returned there was someone you didn't recognize mowing your lawn and there were a bunch of children walking in and out of your front door and you found out they had moved in.

What if these trespassers worked hard to keep where you used to live in good condition, maybe they even did some painting and other repair work.

Would you feel that since they were hard workers they should get to stay in your home or would you want them out of your home even if they had no where else to live.

I would be willing to bet anything that unless you were mentally ill you would not be willing to let them keep your home and you would want their arses kicked out.

The stinking illegals not only are committing a crime by being here a lot of them or most of them committed various crimes, like trespassing on privately owned Ranches, fouling water that was intending for livestock, and crapping and leaving trash on these Privately owned Ranches in the process of them getting into the United States.

So you believe that these Criminals should be rewarded for their crimes by being permitted to stay in MY COUNTRY.

I have a friend in Germany who wanted to move here but he couldn't because of all the Rules and Regulations, but some people believe that these illegals should be permitted to profit from their Crimes.

White, Educated, people, a large percentage of whom already speak English have to go through hell to move here but Dark Skinned, Uneducated people who don't even want to learn English and expect Americans to Speak their Bastardized language and committed crimes to move here and continuing to commit crimes by staying here, should be rewarded by being permitted to stay here and eventually become Citizens that is total Bull Shit.

This is MY COUNTRY not their country and English is MY LANGUAGE not their Bastardized Version of Spanish and I refuse to learn any Foreign Language just to live in MY OWN COUNTRY.

If I moved to France I would learn French and if I moved to Spain I would learn Spanish, real Spanish not the Mexican version of it, since I would not expect the French or the Spanish to learn English, because I refused to learn their National Language.

English needs to be made the Official Language of the United States and bi-lingual education and everything else bi-lingual should be flushed down the shitter like the crap it is.

With luck I will be moving to Arizona this year and I don't want to be forced to learn Mex, and at least at this time I don't have to learn it if I don't want to. But what about ten years from now? Will it be necessary ten years into the future to learn Mex to be able to survive in Arizona.

Even now where I live in New England some jobs require an applicant to be bi-lingual and they don't mean speaking English and German they mean English and Bastardized Spanish. So if this immigration crap continues unabated in the not too distant future everyone who wants a job especially in Public Service, as in Law Enforcement, Fire Fighter, or just working at the DMV or even a job as a checkout person at a grocery store will have to Learn that crappy Language just to be able to get a stinking job.

And the way things are going this crap storm is going to hit Arizona, New Mexico and Texas before it gets near my crappy state. Oh as to California that State seems to have already surrendered.

As I have already stated this is MY COUNTRY I am a REAL AMERICAN I refuse to learn their language because they refuse to learn my language which is English.

Of all the people living in the United States only a small percent of them, Native Americans (American Indians) notwithstanding, can trace their ancestry as far back into American History as I can.

My line does not only go back to the First American Revolution and to the Battle of Concord but it goes all the way back to the Pilgrims. I am a direct descendant of William White who was a passenger on the Mayflower and whose Son was the first person born in the New World. My Family Cradle and William White's Armor and Sword are on display in the Museum in Plymouth Massachusetts and I went there just to see what was once owned and used by my Ancestor.

By the way I don't hate all immigrants even Mexican ones, it is only the ones who are hear illegality that I hate.

But as I previously stated I believe that immigration needs to mostly stop, and one of biggest reasons is population control. There are too many people living in the United States especially uneducated people and it is a fact that a lot of immigrants are not educated at least not enough and for the immigrants from south of the border is almost 100% of them that are Uneducated.

And as to
Brother that is a huge pile of stinking crap. It is the same as a used car lot or a property owner putting up a sign they are wiling to accept all the old bald tires, used engine oil and all the household trash that people have.

That shit from the Statue of Liberty in other words says, we want all the Human Trash from the entire world to move to the USA and they will be accepted and that is TOTAL BULL SHIT.

The only people who should be permitted to permanently move here are people who either have sufficient finances and want to invest monetarily in a business here or who have a specific skill that we are in need of. And these skills do not include being a Janitor or other low skill work.

If this is not enough to convince people why illegals should be removed from MY COUNTRY I have more that I can say but I think I have already said more then enough to explain my position on this issue.

Sniper,

I largely agree with on the illegal issue since illegal is the operative word. However we have people risking their lives to come here and have millions who are wasting their lives using up welfare and food stamps. Just as were the operative words on the statue of liberty is yernkng to be free. Freedom comes with a price responsibility, and hate to break it to you brother but this ain't your country its our country.

We have three problems coming out of Mexico and Jose hopping the fence ain't one of them.
1. Hezbollah terror cells have a foot hold in Brazil and Columbia unlike Al-CIA-da they aren't CIA puppets. They have very real links to Cartels in South America and Mexico.
2. We have ignored the 3rd World police state communist government of Mexico to the point that like many people did during WW2 and in Rowanda people are escaping a war zone. Personally if/when civil war breaks out here I don't want my family treated like prisoners for fleeing a war zone. When we wanted to spread democracy for oil we ignored Mexico because US oil companies and manufacturers were already there.
3. We've created a perfect storm with the other two issues and quite frankly seeing as my grandfather made and sold moonshine during the depression to feed his family and keep the house. An act that while illegal was also done with his family in mind, he didn't steal or kill for money, I really can't blame someone for trying to make their life better.

My issue is why is it we have millions risking their lives to cross a border to work for minimum wage but we keep spending money supporting spoiled little baby machines. With Mexico nearly in a civil war with narco terrorist cartels our southern border and our security are deeply threatened.

I deliberately used MY COUNTRY, because it is my county and it is not their country which is what a lot of them seem to think. I did not use it to mean that this is My Country all to myself. Between you and I my friend it is OUR COUNTRY, but the illegals are not included in “our”

I am not about to change my way of thinking as to the Mex scum. They only ones who belong here are the ones who were here at the time of Texas independence and others who have been here for a few generations. The rest of them, the ones who can't speak or don't want to speak English do not belong here and I will never change my opinion on this.

The entire way of thinking that the United States is or should be a Melting Pot is total bull shit.

The mixing of cultures when the cultures are too different from each other, does not work and will never work, unless one culture is willing to become one with the other culture, it goes against Nature or the way things are in the real world.

Things are different now, then when our country was young.

In the 19th and early 20th Century, immigrants moved here for freedom and to become Americans, now it is different since now a lot of people, especially from south of the border, are not interested in Freedom or becoming Americans but only are interested in making money. To them American is the land of gold and silver so they move here because back in the country of their birth they lived in poverty, and as bad as they may be living here, it is way better then the way they lived in their countries.

The mexicans and others from south of the border want the money they can make here but are unwilling to learn English or even hostile to the idea of having to learn English.

And all the bi-lingual crap makes it easy for them continue to speak their Bastardized Language and to never have to learn English.

Unless we stop mollycoddling them the scum from south of the border will NEVER assimilate.

They need to become Americans and only Americans and stop being Mexicans who are living in the United States which is what these illegals are. They have No intent, Zero or in their language Nada of ever becoming an American, they will always be Mexicans. And if they want to become Citizens it is only because they want the benefits of Citizenship, but their Hearts will always be Mexican.

And this is just the way it is in the real world and it is not just the Mexicans who are this way it is also the way a lot of other recent immigrants believe.

I have a very good friend who even though he has been a Citizen for a fairly long time his loyalty is not to the United States but to the land of his birth. And that is not the way it should be, but sadly it is with a lot of people who are foreign born.

And it is not only people who move into a new country and refuse to assimilate it is also people who move from the City to the Country who refuse to fit in with the people who were there first.

People move from the City to the Country and then they complain about having horses or worse yet cattle next door to their New nice Country Home.

There is one case where my friends had their large horse stable where another horse owner had a city person build their New Home right next to their horse pasture, but the City person only looked at the property during the winter when the horses were in the barn most of the time, and when summer came and he moved in he noticed the horses and got pissed off and wanted the people to get rid of their horses and even sued them because of the Horse Manure. That is bull shit or in this case Horse Shit.

I have heard that long time residents of Arizona hate having people from California or Yankees moving into their towns and the reason is that the newcomers always try to F*ck things up and change where they now live into the liberal hell they just moved from.

And this is the way it is when Mexicans move into an American City they want to change things to the way they are used to and don't want to behave the way Real American do or should.

Definition of assimilate:
to absorb into the culture or mores of a population or group

And that is what they refuse to do. Instead they want us to assimilate into their group.

And to that I have this to say. FUCK THEM TO HELL. I was born a Real American and I come from a very long line of Real Americans and I will die a Real American and those Mexicans can go FUCK THEMSELVES.

And here is on more thing to think about as to Puerto Ricans and others who refer to themselves as Spanish when they are not.

One of my best friends is an Officer in the Merchant Marine and he told me that one time when his ship visited Spain and he went ashore and visited a local Bar some of Spaniards were beating up on one of his Puerto Rican Crew Members and noticing my friend one of the Spaniards walked over to him and told him not to worry and they didn't dislike Americans but only disliked Puerto Ricans because they refer to themselves as Spanish and they are NOT Spanish. Just because they speak a version of Spanish dose not make them Spanish anymore then Speaking a version of English does not mean you are English.

I am an American of English descent but I am not English since I am not a subject of the Queen.

Mexicans, meaning the ones who are now here illegally will always be Mexicans, and will only be loyal to Mexico and never to the United States even if they become Citizens and that is the Truth and just the way it is in the Real World and not in the Fantasy Land that a lot of people, including some of the members of this board, seem to be living in...

Secure the border and deport the millions of unlawful entries. You wanna come here, do it right, like so many other people from other countries have.

To many Jose types coming in running around unchallenged! Do it right, or you dont get to do it at all. Thats it, thats all and that should be the end of it.

Read those two Cato papers. People are definitely stealing from me, but it's not the "illegal" immigrants who are doing the stealing. In fact, they're actually putting money in our wallets.

Just what is YOUR country? Is it a country where everyone looks pretty much the same and speaks the same language, with a 50-foot fence, drones, and a national ID card to keep it that way? Or is it a country of liberty and prosperity? I don't know about you, but I'll take the latter.

Onward and upward,
airforce

Airforce, there is a legal & proper way to get into this country. It may be harder & more involving than what it used to be, but it still exists. Go to some other country illegally & see how fast you get put in jail &/or deported. We need to do the same.

Why? Aren't we supposed to be better than "some other country?" Why should a Mexican immigrant line the pockets of some corrupt official in order to come here? (And the bribes are not cheap, either. Otherwise they wouldn't be paying some coyote/drug smuggler to get them across the border.)

Just as an aside, and this really has nothing to do with the debate, but if I had the choice of paying a corrupt government official or a coyote/drug smuggler to come here, I'd rather pay the coyote. Being a free market anarchist, I value the independent businessman, and I figure the coyote/drug smuggler must have at least a little integrity, which the government official lacks.

Getting back on track here, there is a simple solution to end the problem of "illegal" immigration.

Make it legal.

If you wish, have them sign a guest book as they cross the border. Hand them a visa, which is good for as long as they (or the head of household) are working or searching for work, and say, "Welcome to America, the Land of the Free." Voila. No more illegal aliens from Mexico. And it's a whole lot cheaper than building some 50-foot fence and patrol it with drones. And it isn't nearly as creepy as issuing everyone a national ID card with all of your biometric data on it.

Here's something else that I'll just throw out for discussion. Is the "right to travel" a fundamental, God-given human right? Why, or why not?

Onward and upward,
airforce

1. There is already a way to immigrate to the US legally. Those not following those rules are doing so illegally.
2. 50% of the inmates in one Illinois prison for murder are illegal aliens.
3. 95% of Los Angeles outstanding warrants for murder are for illegal aliens.
4. Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) examined the costs of education, health care and incarceration of illegal aliens, and concluded that the costs to Californians is $10.5 billion per year (2004).
5. Multi-lingual schooling is not melting cultures together and instead drives up the cost of education because the teachers are now getting added pay for teaching in other languages and we now have greater unequal education, skills and knowledge within the populations.
6. Look to Dearborn Michigan as to what happens when a new culture takes over an area. Ambulance drivers regularly find headless corpses or missing body parts when picking up the dead in the city.
7. Illegal aliens are not just Mexican.
8. I believe in the sovereignty of nations but I also believe in governments with limited powers which is why I support some of your anarchist viewpoints but I don't believe in open borders.

I think that we all value the freedom to travel safely. When I travel overseas, I often need a visa and a passport. We have treaties with some countries to travel for short periods of time without Visas, but we still need passports. If I worked overseas, I would need a visa and passport.
1. Do you think that murders and pediophiles from other countries should be free to roam our country?
2. Do you think that terrorists from other countries should be free to roam our country?
3. Why did the Roman Empire collapse?

No. But then, I don't think murderers and pedophiles who were born here should be free to roam around, either. But that's really not what we're talking about.

Be careful here. There are some who would classify us as terrorists. In any event, I haven't heard of a lot of Mexican terrorists coming here since the days of Pancho Villa. We've all heard rumors that Hezbollah operatives are in Mexico and Central America, but I've never heard of one crossing the southern border.

I can think of quite a few reasons, including economic collapse the people in general being fed up with corrupt government officials. When a country weakens itself through economic policies and corruption, it becomes vulnerable to all kinds of rotten things. And you don't need to go all the way back to Roman times to find examples of that.

As to the various Hispanic street gangs, yes, they exist. Like the home-grown gangs, they are a product of the War on Drugs, but there is also an element of self-defense in there, too. Various criminals see illegal aliens as an easy mark, because for obvious reasons they hesitate to call the police when someone robs or defrauds them. (And, yes, police officers have been known to do this, too. Right here in Tulsa we recently arrested a police officer for robbing an "illegal alien" - who, in this case, was actually an undercover officer.)

If you want to end the problem of street gangs, end Prohibition. Stop arbitrarily classifying millions of peaceful people as "illegal." And, while you're at it, end the minimum wage. But two of those solutions are beyond the scope of this topic, and I'd really rather keep this focused.

As to the prison where half the inmates are illegal aliens, that's not surprising. Most states, to reduce prison violence, try to keep rival gangs separate, so that Bloods might be in one prison, Crips in another, and Hispanic gangs in still another. There is no shortage of prisons these days.

Onward and upward,
airforce

Sniper,

Quite honestly I agree with you on certain issues. But not on all of them. My point in saying it was our country is that I'm not against them being here so we (me and you) have different ideas within a shared space. Now on two cultures being unable to exist side by side, I some what agree. We already have conservative vs liberal and communist vs capitalist. The Mexicans are conservative capitalists so we share a.common ideology if not a language. I speak really bad Spanish so I don't have a language issue. Here in America we are going to learn first hand what it means not to be a superpower. Get used to other languages.

Fact is we won't have an issue with illegal immigration when the economy implodes. Speaking Spanish with a large continent of Spanish speaker attached to used to the idea. How many Europeans speak 3 or 4 languages because they are sharing borders with other nations? We have Canada, English and French speaking and Mexico which is Spanish speaking. So learning a second or third language might be tactically smart.

If I ever come across someone who agrees with me on everything, I'm going to be very, very worried.

Onward and upward,
airforce

This country is better than the other countries, in my opinion. But the reason why the USA is better, is because it is full of law abiding citizens. How can a country continually be great if a huge group of people coming over are breaking the law at the onset?? Then, for just being here illegally, are stealing the financial resources of this nation at local, state & federal levels.

Someone please let me know which law I can break..or do I get to choose?? Can I drive 95mph in city limits..drunk..stoned..running from the cops?? Nope!! No free pass for me!! I wouldn't do this anyways, but if laws are OK to break, which one is OK for me to break?

Our country became great because we set-up a set of rules that the government followed, until recently. In this process, "We the people.." vote for the direction that the local, state, & federal levels of government can tax & govern. We are currently in a tough rut, but I believe it will be straightened out very soon. Hey, I have an idea; why don't those illegal folks go back to THEIR country & fix it as they desire instead of coming here & ruining MY country??

My thoughts & ideas are similar to SNIPER's & Archangle1's

1. Regarding the Natural Right of Free Travel. No sovereign country can have open borders, remove common cultural identities, fail to speak and use a common language in commerce and community, fail to effect laws to protect private property, fail to provide for a common defense and survive long term. If you are not a citizen of the country where you wish to travel, get a passport and visa, and follow the laws of that country. I prefer that criminals of one country stay in that country, so our citizens don't have to pay in life or silver.
2. Prohibition should have taught us that drug use and drug trade should not be illegal. I don't advocate drug use but it should be my choice not someone elses. This is one area that we are in sync.
3. I used the Roman Empire because it was the world power of its time. Corruption and importing aliens with differing cultures and languages to handle lower level jobs and tasks was the point.
4. Illegal aliens of any nationality would not be in our prisons for any crime if they were not here illegally.
5. While the topic is about Mexican immigrants specifically, should we descriminate against Salvadorians, Hondurans, Columbians, Venezualans and Guatamalans that have fled their Spanish speaking countries too? I would guess that families from those countries that are trying to bring other family members to the US might get a little ticked off if only Mexicans had a free pass.

Regarding the first part, reread the first post in this topic. They're not "stealing the financial resources of this nation." On the contrary, their cheap labor benefits ALL Americans. Rather than being a financial drain, they are putting dollars in your wallet.

As to the second, if the government passed a law requiring all Americans to turn in their guns, would you comply with that law? Don't answer that question, just think about it.

They would not be illegal aliens if we had a sensible, just immigration policy. And they most likely wouldn't be in prison at all if it were not for Prohibition. And there would be a lot fewer of them here in the first place, if we didn't have all those dumb minimum wage laws that demand to be broken. But that's a subject for another topic.

And you're right, I really didn't mean to single out Mexicans.

I'll grant you, the right of free travel is probably incompatible with tyrannical nation states. So is that an argument against the right of free travel, or against the nation state? Hmmm...

Onward and upward,
airforce

I keep writing and editing and then deleting a response to this. I can't deal with it all in one post, but a few short things before I get to sleep.

Arguing for legalized wages below a sustainable living wage level is politically suicidal.

There are already plenty of legal functions in place for subminimum wage in the volunteer and semi-professional sector, and if someone can't abide by the regulations on that, they probably ought not claim any status as employers.

There is no law against giving little Tommy down the street $20 to spend an afternoon mowing your lawn. There are laws against hiring teenagers to quit school, work for subminimum wage while their parents collect welfare, and the kids, lacking skills, are unlikely to escape the cycle of poverty. Or in some people's idea of a perfect world, the kids work for minimum wage or below, the parents go in debt to the company town, and then the kids just graduate into virtual slavery. When the family dies off due to blacklung, the recruiters go off to Europe and falsely advertise about the good life and convince people to get on the ships and immigrate...

I can remember, not all that long ago, when arguing for marijuana legalization was something no politician would ever do. Come to think of it, arguing for open borders is a politically dumb thing to do, too. The right thing to do, but politically dumb.

Times change. We'll just have to educate the people on this, like we have on drugs and a myriad of other things. Or, more likely, an economic collapse will occur and with unemployment around 30% - 40%, the minimum age will just sort of get ignored.

This really should be the subject for another thread, but I will throw this out there: If you're going to try to legislate economic prosperity, why stop at just a "minimum wage?" Why not just guarantee everyone an annual income of $100,000 or so? Then we'd all be rich!

The reason we don't, of course, is because it would be ridiculous. You can't legislate economic prosperity. And minimum wage laws try to do exactly that.

Onward and upward,
airforce

Here is something to consider... Mexico is a police state hellhole and none of want the US to be like Mexico. The Mexicans want Mexico to be more like the US. So we need to work with some of the Mexicans to made Mexico more US like and keep us from becoming Mexico but with an effective military.

I tend to agree with this but don't know how effective we would be at carrying it out. Mexico is extremely politically complex and a lot of those people will turn on you real quick. The communists have been entrenching themselves with every possible "liberation" movement down there for decades.

Thats a bit of the problem isn't it. I don't know how to make that happen either...

Quite a thought provoking thread.

To me, having open borders essentially requires a single world government. I don't see a good way to provide for national defense, community defense, and a court system to ejudicate private ownership, trade, and basic civil rights, when you have many nations or groups of people vying for world domination.

Only if imported workers do not use social services and accept lower wages from employers might they lower the cost of goods and services to those in the community that buy those items. The questions becomes 1) does the lower wages of these employess lower overall wages, 2) will the lower cost of labor be passed onto those in the community in lower prices and 3) will those in the community be able to afford those products if total wages are suppressed?

The Cato Institute already answered that question. "As Immigrants Move In, Americans Move Up."

I've pretty much resigned myself that I'm going to have to do a thread on the minimum wage. Topics on economics usually aren't too popular here, but maybe this one will be different.

I've not a fan of any government, and a one-world government is certainly not a part of my agenda. However, I once said that if I were elected Supreme Poo-Bah, I would offer statehood to any Mexican state or Canadian province that, by a 2/3 vote, agreed to ratify the Bill of Rights. It just seems like a bargain to me. Kick out the corrupt government officials, and use free market economics to put the vast natural resources in both countries to good use. I still think it's a great idea, but I sure haven't seen too many others agree with me on it.

Onward and upward,
airforce

In an anarchist environment, we're be in fast agreement. In a liberal, education-induced big government environment I can't quite agree with your tactics while agreeing with your principles on so many levels. Sadly we have built a constitutional federal government over the past 200 years that is an antithesis to liberty that our forefathers laid out.

It may seem far-fetched, but radical ideas have a way of catching on. The concept that natural law does not come from some monarch or from the Church, but from the Creator, seemed not just radical, but heretical and treasonous, until St. Thomas Aquinas put forth this very concept in his Summa Theologia. The Magna Carta, or Great Charter of English Common Law, changed the entire course of history. And the idea that a nation should be ruled not by a monarch but by the People? That could never happen!

To be sure, I don't see us becoming a free market anarchy by popular vote. I think a total economic collapse will precede it. But my ESP has never been especially good, so I wouldn't rule out anything. Perhaps it really will come about in stages, and a couple states legalizing marijuana is only the latest baby step towards our goal.

Can a nation exist with open borders? Why not? True, a certain percentage of the people coming here will be criminals, but that has always been the case. More than a few of our forefathers, mine included, got on the boat to America one step ahead of the law. An awful lot of people who trace their ancestry back to the Old Country get a pretty nasty shock.

In a previous post, you mentioned the Roman Empire and hinted that, perhaps, it was unchecked immigration that caused their downfall. I would argue that immigration and the influence of different cultures (including Christianity) actually strengthened the empire, but these were overcome by a corrupt bureaucracy, monetary collapse, and incompetent emperors. (The Visigoths would not have sacked Rome if Emperor Valens had fulfilled the promises he made to them.)

Onward and upward,
airforce

Well Archangel you brought up a valid point and here is my take on your questions. A natural rights grant national security. We return to the foundation of our nation, each state is effectively an independent nation state.

I would only add mandatory military service for 2 years to ensure a well regulated unorganized milita. I would require any immigrant to spend this same term of service for citizenship.

I would also cut taxes across the board along with welfare programs to reduce the tax burden and lower wages while raising the standard of living. But thats only a starting point. A large reason for the cost of goods and services would include the excessive taxation. As for work vesa I'd keep it simple if you come in to visit you can work legally. Just come through customs and their you go. Citizenship should be required to own property and vote.

Permitting anyone to move to the USA who wants to, would not only be political suicide it would be National Suicide.

Does anyone who wants to have Open Borders have any idea of how many people would be moving here within a short time span of like maybe One or Two Years.

I believe it would be likely that from 20 to 40 Million econometric refugees would move into the United States just from Mexico within the first one or two years of the Border being Open.

And then there are the 6.64 Million Guatemalans who live below the poverty line and would want to move here.

And then there are all the people who live below the poverty line from all the other nations from south of the border.

And lets not forget the Somalis and other Muslims who live below the Poverty line.

So all you members who want Open Borders what do you think would happen if lets say just 40,000,000 Impoverished Mexicans looking to for a better Econometric life were to move here, like I stated in a time span of just one year?

Well I have a very good idea of what the results would be and it would not be very nice.

I think most of the members understand that a very large percent of that 40 Million would not be able to find any work or a place to live. And I think most of the members also understand that if they can't get work to feed their families a lot of them would turn to crime.

And what might Citizens do if this Mex Crime became a large enough problem?

I believe that if pushed far enough American Citizens would take the Law into their own hands.

And Crime is only one of the problems.

You know what I hate to even say it.....But it's time...

You mean like how the Brits used the American South (I think it was Georgia) and Australia as penal colonies? Our country's DNA is definately different.

If all those people wanted to come here, what's stopping them now?

"The Economics of Increased Immigration." Cato Institute podcast, about 6 minutes.

Onward and upward,
airforce

Brother then what about everyone leaving the doors of their Homes and Businesses unlocked and open.

Surely what difference would it make since What's stopping them now from robbing People.

And while people are at it whey bother locking and taking the Keys out of their Cars.

airforce you have a big problem you are so much a Free Market Anarchist, it keeps you from living in the real world.

If you were not blinded by your beliefs, you would be able to see that there is a huge difference between having to pay Human Smugglers large amounts of money to Smuggle them across a very dangerous border where a lot of Illegals die, either from the Elements or from being Murdered by the Smugglers themselves, to just walking or driving legally and unmolested through a Border Checkpoint.

And what about Arizona and California. Why don't the Gun Owners in California Open Carry or Carry Concealed without a License like Gun Owners do in Arizona.

Since as you stated If all those people wanted to come here, what's stopping them now?

And as to Gun Owners if Gun Owners wanted to Carry what's stopping them now?

While you seem to think correctly on a lot of issues, on anything that has to do with your Ideas on Free Market Anarchism you don't think logically and you seem to be living in a fantasy world or in an Alternate Universe.

You mean this isn't Bizarro World I'm on?

I'll grant you that open borders is probably not realistic anytime in the near future. (After that economic collapse, who knows.) But we can sure make our immigration policies a whole lot more realistic. Have immigrants sign the guest book, and maybe do a routine background check. (I said maybe, because dealing with corrupt government officials most likely makes this an exercise in futility, anyway.)

Here's just something to think about. Texas doesn't stop immigrants coming from any of the other States, and people have been moving there for jobs in droves, from California, Oregon, New York, and every other state. Incredibly, despite all those legal immigrants, the Texas economy is still growing. You could, of course, give the credit to Rick Perry, but I'm not inclined to do that.

Come to think of it, with all the "illegal" immigrants in Texas, the economy still keeps growing, too. What a shocker.

As to why the economy is tanking in California, and why people don't open carry there, well, I think you know the answer to that. Look at who their lawmakers are. Now, if you really want to deport some people, you can start with Governor Moonbeam and work your way down.

Onward and upward,
airforce

CA has Ms Feinstein, Boxer and Pelosi too boot. The Leftists now have a supermajority in the state government to do anything they wish.

It will take decades to fix California after the people finally figure out that they need to deport them.

The Texas economy is growing because capitalism works and people get to keep more from their efforts.

If illegals don't want to fight to fix their own country, what makes you think they'll fight for ours? Educated Hispanics don't trust the mojadas and keep a close eye on them. You have been warned.

Mexicans who try to fix their own country end up dead. So do journalists who are brash enough to criticize corrupt officials. You don't think those "drug cartels" do all the killing, do you?

Onward and upward,
airforce

Enjoy your new non-citizen citizens. When are Americans going to get tired of shooting themselves in the foot?
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...-illegal-immigrants-blaming-budget-cuts/

From the article:

That's how the Obama administration is dealing with the threat of sequestration - they're trying to convince the American people the world will end if the rate of growth of the government is slowed. (Notice I said "slowed." Nothing is really being "cut.")

In truth, President Obama has already deported more "illegal" aliens than any other President. So if you're wondering why you're spending more money at the grocery store, and why your stay at the Marriott hotel costs more, well, there's one reason.

Onward and upward,
airforce

1. I honestly don't believe the statistics that Obama has deported more illegal aliens than any other President. Are they criminals being deported?
2. I would guess that he's spent more towards enabling illegal aliens than any other President.
3. I don't see a reduction in available workforce in the fields driving up food costs. 4. Maybe the minimum wage in CA has raised some costs.
5. Additionally, we import a lot of foods from other countries today.
6. We have a huge unemployment issue with our youth. If we didn't provide government assistance, don't you think that the youth would fill those jobs in the fields? I remember mowing lawns, plowing driveways and cooking in the restaurants as a teenager.

We're spending more at the grocery store because energy, government regulations, minimum wage and medical costs have raised the cost of everything.

As far as #1 goes, believe it. Some of them, of course, are criminals, and we're doing more at catching them near the border (those "immigration checkpoints," for one). But overall, the GOP ought to be happy with Obama on immigration.

And yeah, when I get time I really am going to do a topic on the minimum wage. Those who don't like free market anarchy can gang up on me on that one, too.

Onward and upward,
airforce

I carried concealed for years in California without a license, but it would be suicidal to sign your name on a group doing it. I hardly got screwed with for it either.

California has the laws on the books, and then the rules on the street which diverge greatly once you are out of the major cities.

Thanks for the heads up Brother, I will sharpen my claws in preparation for your Topic on the minimum wage.

From Wikipedia

Liberalism

Cato's scholars also advocate positions that are appealing to many on the left side of the American political spectrum, including support for civil liberties, liberal immigration policies,[33] equal rights for gays and lesbians,[32][54] and drug liberalization.[30] An early example of this effort was the launching of Inquiry Magazine, which was aimed at liberals who shared libertarians' skepticism about concentrated state power.

'nuff said

Well, yes. And actually, us libertarians were arguing for those policies before the "liberals" were. I've been arguing for an end to the War on drugs long before I came to AWRM, and that was a long time ago. Civil liberties? You bet, but then that's what the Bill of Rights were all about. (Incidentally, the "liberals" tend to be somewhat selective about which civil liberties their willing to grant us. As do the so-called "conservatives.") And just who gave the government the right to decide who people could marry? Shouldn't that right belong to the couple, their family, and their church? And yes, our immigration policies could use a little tweaking, too.

Now, if only the liberals would do away with the federal reserve and go back to gold and silver-backed currency, privatize our children's schools, end unconstitutional wars, drop gun control, abolish minimum wage laws, and bring back tar and feathers, we might get along.

Seriously, none of my ideas will appeal to everyone here. And I was actually quite surprised that I found any support here for this one. But I made you think, didn't I?

Onward and upward,
airforce

At least you've never called me a pussy, like Ann Coulter did.

Onward and upward,
airforce

The illegal immigration problem isn't going to be solved until, unless, there's revolution on BOTH sides of the border. With everyone's focus on survival, with no meaningful political, social counteroffensive being enacted this will not change.

Text of Rand Paul\'s speech on immigration here.

He rejects "a national ID card or mandatory E-Verify system," but otherwise I would have hoped for something better. But, he's running for President, and in any event I doubt he would go along with my "open borders" proposal anyway - after all, no one else does.

Too long to post here, but it's well worth a read.

Onward and upward,
airforce

My phaser is set for stun. The battery is now dead due to a taped down trigger.

When I moved to my current location one in four people were mexekins. Thirty plus years later they are one in three.

They CAN'T BE BOTHERED TO SPEAK AMERICAN or English.
Yes I've worked with 'those people'. Over the years a few have been my friend. These were the few who had enough Respect for me and the USA to SPEAK AMERICAN. Most of those people speak spanish. Many have lived here 20+years yet REFUSE TO LEARN/SPEAK AMERICAN.

FUCK EM. No one is making them live here. If they don't like me or people who think as I do then they are welcome to GET THE FUCK OUT.